questions to Hrdayanada Maharaja about Mahabharat and some futher research

[Paramananda das]

Please accept my humble obaisences

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

I presented Hrdyananda Maharaja with my article about how many persons where killed during the battle of Kuruksetra:

http://nimaipandit.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-many-persons-where-a...

 

So my question to Maharaja was that it is mentioned that 18 Auksahinis where killed during the battle of Kuruksetra which is around 3.94 million people killed.Srila  Prabhupada

has said 60 million in some lectures and Stri parva of Mahabahrat has stated something else.

 

So I asked: The question is this 18 aksauhinis   comes to a total of  3.94 million killed, Aksauhini consisted of 21,870 chariots (Sanskrit ratha); 21,870 elephants; 65,610 cavalry and 109,350 infantry,[1] as per the Mahabharata (Adi Parva 2.15-23)

 

but Mahabharata, Book 11 (Stri Parva), Chapter 26, Verses 9 &10: states:   9 “दशायुतानाम अयुतं सहस्राणि च विंशतिः कॊट्यः षष्टिश च षट चैव ये ऽसमिन राजमृधे हताः 10 अलक्ष्याणां तु वीराणां सहस्राणि चतुर्दश दश चान्यानि राजेन्द्र शतं षष्टिश च पञ्च च” 9 ‘dasayutanam ayutam sahasrani ca vimsatih koṭyah ṣastis ca ṣat caiva ye smin rajamrdhe hataḥ 10 alakṣyanam tu viranam sahasrani caturdasa dasa canyani rajendra satam ṣastis ca panca ca’ Yudhishthira answered, ‘One billion 660 million and 20,000 men have fallen in this battle. Of the heroes that have escaped, the number is 240,165.’

 

Maharaja answered:

 

It seems the Mahabharata is straightforward in saying that 18 aksauhinis died in 18 days.

 

Then I asked  Maharaja about the Sri Parva quote and he gave a most educational information:

 

In his book on Mahabharata, Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya, Sripada Madhvacarya claims that the Mahabharata text available to him had text corruptions throughout: interpolations, extrapolations, and transpositions of text. A fair reading of the text indicates that Mahabharata had a long and shifting oral tradition before it was written down. Personally, I would take the fantastic number of 11.26.9-10 to be an interpolation, or referring to another transearthly realm. I also accept Ugrasena's 10-30 trillion (the Sanskrit verse doesn't mention bodyguards) as being extra-dimensional.

 

I then asked Maharaja  :

 

Thank you Maharaja, when you say extra dimensional would you care to specifie. So if Srila Madhavacarya has stated that there is interpolations, etc did he give a Mahabharat without all these defects?

 

He answered:

 

By extra-dimensional, I mean in some realm or dimension beyond the ordinary material real that an ordinary human being perceives every day. Madhvacarya talked about the characters of the Mahabharata but did not give an alternative text.

 

 

      After this I have been starting to poke my nose into the texts of  Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata_Tatparya_Nirnaya

 

And there is a good english translation http://mahabharata-resources.org/mbtntrans/mbtntrans.html

 

Something that really struck me was this explanation of Srila Madhavacarya:

 

mahaabhaarata taatparya nirNaya of shrii aananda tiirtha, shriimanmadhvaachaarya chapter 10 vyaasa avataara kathaa niruupaNa adhyaaya describing the incarnation of veda vyaasa

In this chapter, the  incarnation of naaraayaNa as veda vyaasa is described; his  classification of veda-s; authoring many sastras, such as the Brahma-Sutras and Mahabharata; his imparting right knowledge to virtuous people; his destroying the evil kali present in the hearts of good people is taken up.

 

--oOo-- OM ||  dvApare.atha yuge prApte tvashhTAviMshatime punaH  | svayambhusharvashakrAdyA dugdhAbdhestIramAyayuH  || 10 .1||

dvApare atha yuge prApte tvashhTA viMshatime punaH svayambhu sharva shakra AdyaaH dugdha abdheH tIram AyayuH  || 10 .1||

 

Then, with the arrival of twenty eighth dwaapara era, gods like brahma, rudra, devandra and others have arrived at the shore of Milky Ocean to present themselves before viShNu, who will be in shveta dwiipa, white island, in the midst of Milky Ocean . [10-1]

 

Note: This is the twenty eighth dwaapara era in vaivasvata manvantara. vyaasa's incarnation is at the end of dwaapara era. Vishnu took birth as vyaasa in five dwaapara eras as the son of satyavathi and paraashara. He became the mentor to the Rishi-s of Veda-s in 3rd, 7th, 16th, 25th dwaapara eras, while he personally undertook the work of dividing Veda-s and authoring Mahabharata etc in the 28th dwaapara yuga - as noted by madhvaachaarya in bhaagavata taatparya, 2nd skandha, 7-36 --  tR^itiiye saptame caiva shoDashe... | vyassaachaaryastu puurveShu....

 

I really pray the GBC and BBT will encourage HH Hrdayananda Maharaja to complete the Mahabharat, he is surely the most qualified person for this task in ISKCON.

The Mahabharat is such an important book

 

I saw a discussion on ISKCON Desire tree http://www.iskcondesiretree.net/forum/topics/mahabharata-fact-or-fi...

 

Srila Prabhupada has stated:

 

 

This Vedic knowledge was stated in the Atharva Veda. Later on, just on the beginning of this millenium, the Kali yuga, Vyasadeva, who is the supreme authority of Vedic knowledge, considering the degraded condition of men in this age, divided the whole Veda into departmental knowledge and some of his disciples were entrusted with a particular type of departmental knowledge. In this way the whole Vedic knowledge developed into four Vedas, 108 Upanisads, 18 Puranas, then summarized in Vedanta Sutra, and then again to benefit the less intelligent class of men like women, workers, and the degraded descendants of the higher class he made another fifth Veda known as Mahabharata or the great history of India. (Letter to: Unknown – Los Angeles 12 April, 1970 – 70-04-12)

 

You have hinted about the value of concentration and in the stories from the Bhagavatam and Mahabharata, but I do not exactly follow what you mean by this. The statements in the Bhagavatam and Mahabharata and the Puranas are all different historical incidents. Mahabharata is called, according to Vedic authorities, as the history of India. I do not know who first designated it as an ‘epic’. That is the cause of the fall down of Hindu culture. They did not believe in their Vedic literatures presented by Vyasadeva. They are not stories after all. Stories are imaginary, but they are not imaginary. They are actual facts. But such historical facts are not chronological; but for the teaching of the commonplace people some of the important incidents of history are there. It is said saram saram samud dhritva. This means only the essential facts have been collected, and they are put together in the shape of Puranas, Mahabharata, etc.” (Letter to: Mr. Kair -Los Angeles, 8 July, 1969)

 

Actually because the Gita is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead it is sruti. But people take it as smrti because it is part of the Mahabharata. We take it as sruti as far as we are concerned. The purport of sruti is to make one advanced in understanding the Absolute Truth. Here the Absolute Truth is explaining personally, therefore the Gita should be taken as sruti. But they take it as smrti because it is part of the Smriti (Mahabharata). In one sense it is both sruti and smrti. (Letter to Acutyananda – 14 June, 1974, 74-06-14)

 

And in Srimad Bhagavatam and  Bhavisya Purana it is stated also stated that Mahabharat is the 5th  Veda.

 

Of course the conclusive meanings of Mahabharat is found within the Srimad Bhagavatam :

  In the Puranas, the Srimad-Bhagavatam is glorified as follows:

artho ’yam brahma-sutranam bharatartha-vinirnayah gayatri-bhasya-rupo ’sau vedartha-paribrmhitah purananam sama-rupah saksad-bhagavatoditah dvadasa-skandha-yukto ’yam sata-viccheda-samyutah grantho ’stadasa-sahasrah srimad-bhagavatabhi [“‘The meaning of the Vedanta-sutra is present in Srimad-Bhagavatam. The full purport of the Mahabharata is also there. The commentary of the Brahma-gayatri is also there and fully expanded with all Vedic knowledge. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the supreme Purana, and it was compiled by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His incarnation as Vyasadeva. There are twelve cantos, 335 chapters and eighteen thousand verses. (Hari Bhakti Vilas, 10.394 / Garuda Purana, as quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, 25.143-144)]

 

I found this concept very interesting: Even though Mahabharata had some of Krsna’s glories, Mahabharata can be misused in Kali Yuga justifying violence for selfish motives. In addition, the conclusion of the Mahabharata is destruction. How can one be satisfied with such a conclusion? Being inspired, Narada Muni chanted the Srimad Bhagavatam to Vyasadeva who wrote it down.

 

 

 

“In this age, Kali -yuga, to kill the demons means to stop their demonic activities by the weapon of kirtana, Hari-Sankirtana, which is spread by Lord Chaitanya’s associates.” by Srila Prabhupada In his conversations, London, 10th March, 1975.

 

 

The less intelligent classes of men, namely women, śūdras and unqualified sons of the higher castes, are devoid of necessary qualifications to understand the purpose of the transcendental Vedas. For them the Mahābhārata was prepared.But Srimad Bhagavatam is higher than the Mahabharat.

 

SB 1.4.24: Thus the great sage Vyāsadeva, who is very kind to the ignorant masses, edited the Vedas so they might be assimilated by less intellectual men.

SB 1.4.25: Out of compassion, the great sage thought it wise that this would enable men to achieve the ultimate goal of life. Thus he compiled the great historical narration called the Mahābhārata for women, laborers and friends of the twice-born.

SB 1.4.26: O twice-born brāhmaṇas, still his mind was not satisfied, although he engaged himself in working for the total welfare of all people.

SB 1.4.27: Thus the sage, being dissatisfied at heart, at once began to reflect, because he knew the essence of religion, and he said within himself:

 

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.4.28-29

dhṛta-vratena hi mayā

chandāḿsi guravo 'gnayaḥ

mānitā nirvyalīkena

gṛhītaḿ cānuśāsanam

bhārata-vyapadeśena

hy āmnāyārthaś ca pradarśitaḥ

dṛśyate yatra dharmādi

strī-śūdrādibhir apy uta

 

SYNONYMS

dhṛta-vratena — under a strict disciplinary vow; hi — certainly; mayā — by me; chandāḿsi — the Vedic hymns; guravaḥ — the spiritual masters; agnayaḥ — the sacrificial fire; mānitāḥ — properly worshiped; nirvyalīkena — without pretense; gṛhītam ca — also accepted; anuśāsanam — traditional discipline; bhārata — the Mahābhārata; vyapadeśena — by compilation of; hi — certainly; āmnāya-arthaḥ — import of disciplic succession; ca — and; pradarśitaḥ — properly explained; dṛśyate — by what is necessary; yatra — where; dharma-ādiḥ — the path of religion; strī-śūdra-ādibhiḥ api — even by women, śūdras, etc.; uta — spoken.

TRANSLATION

I have, under strict disciplinary vows, unpretentiously worshiped the Vedas, the spiritual master and the altar of sacrifice. I have also abided by the rulings and have shown the import of disciplic succession through the explanation of the Mahābhārata, by which even women, śūdras and others [friends of the twice-born] can see the path of religion.

PURPORT by Srila Prabhupada

No one can understand the import of the Vedas without having undergone a strict disciplinary vow and disciplic succession. The Vedas, spiritual masters and sacrificial fire must be worshiped by the desiring candidate. All these intricacies of Vedic knowledge are systematically presented in the Mahābhārata for the understanding of the woman class, the laborer class and the unqualified members of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya or vaiśya families. In this age, the Mahābhārata is more essential than the original Vedas.

 

   

  As Mahabharat is full of the pastimes of Krsna and Arjuna, the very last sloka of Bhagavad Gita comes to my mind, and thus to hear the Mahabharat and the transcendental pastimes of Krsna and Arjuna and the Pandavas pleases the heart of all devotees.

 

yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇo

yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ

tatra śrīr vijayo bhūtir

dhruvā nītir matir mama

 

Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion.

 

I like to finally share the amazing purport of Srila Madhavacarya to this last sloka of the Bhagavad Gita:

 

Brahma Vaisnava Sampradaya:

Madhvacarya

Madhvacarya's Commentary

 

Lord Krishna declares that there is no human more exalted then He who devotes his life disseminating the teachings of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita to His devotees and explains the meaning of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita to others. By these words the topmost gradation of human beings has been elucidated. This applies specially to all human species and specifically to the demigods in the heavenly planets.

The spiritual potency of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita is so sublime and phenomenal that even by aurally hearing this science recited by a devotee of Lord Krishna leads to moksa or liberation from material existence and release from samsara the perpetual cycle of birth and death. Knowledge of the atma or immortal soul and its eternal relationship with Lord Krishna increases one's individual consciousness exponentially. Even those who have achieved moksa still derive the greatest pleasure from listening to it explained from the mouth of a devotee and those devotees who are imbued with a life of austerity and devotion it becomes like aural nectar. The demigods in the heavenly planets whose minds are greatly enhanced know the entire Srimad Bhagavad-Gita by memory get immense pleasure from singing it as a divine song in the anustup meter consisting of 32 syllables per measure. Their is no greater pleasure or joy then derived from discoursing on Srimad Bhagavad- Gita's chapters, verses or even half a verse.

Full body prostrated obeisance unto the Supreme Lord Krishna, the dearest and most precious of all that is dear and precious. He alone is the embodiment of all wonderful attributes and superlative qualities, having no defects and He bestows nityananda eternal bliss. The Supreme Lord Krishna is endowed with sat eternal existence, cit unlimited consciousness and ananda or endless bliss. He is always the recipient of glorification and worship from Brahma, Shiva, Laksmi, Surya the sungod, Vayu the god of wind and others.

There have been three forms of Vayu who have appeared in the last three yugas or ages. Their appearances are of mystical confidential context. First in Treta Yuga was Hanuman the servitor of Lord Rama who discovered the whereabouts of Sita-devi and originally spoke the Ramayana prior to Valmiki as well devastating the demoniac armies of Ravana. Second in Dvarpara Yuga was Bhima of the Pandavas who following the commands of Lord Krishna destroyed the demoniac Kaurava dynasty which was inimical to dharma or eternal righeouness. Third in Kali Yuga is the sage known as Madhvacarya who put the mayavadis impersonalist into flight by composing this commentary propounding the glorious Srimad Bhagavad-Gita and eulogising the Supreme Lord Krishna.

 

He is revealing that he, Madhavacarya is the incarnation of Vayu in Kali yuga to defeat the mayavadis

 

Jaya Srila Madhvacarya ki jaya

 

 Srila Prabhupada ki jaya

 

your humble servant

Paramananda das

 

[Paramananda das]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/maha/index.htm

[Paramananda das]

Here are the relevant quotes from the MTN of Madhvacarya:

2.2

uktaù pürve ‘dhyäye  çästräëäà nirëayaù paro divyaù

çrémad bhärata-väkyäny etair evädhyavasyante

 

In the previous chapter, the divine, spiritual conclusion of Çästras was stated.  Now the Mahäbhärata’s statements are established by them.

 

2.3 

kvacid granthän prakñipanti kvacid antaritän api

kuryuù kvacic ca vyatyäsaà pramädät kvacid anyathä

       In some places, they interpolate the texts, in some places they even subtract from the texts, insome places they neglectfully transpose the texts, and in some places they do otherwise.

 

2.4 

anutsannä api granthä vyäkulä iti sarvaçaù

utsannäù präyaçaù sarve koöy-aàço ‘pi na vartate

       Even texts that are not lost are in all respects disordered. The texts are mostly lost/in ruins/decayed. Not even a fraction of a koöi exists.

 

 

2.5-6 

grantho ‘py evaà vilulitaù kim nv artho deva-durgamaù

kaläv evaà vyäkulite nirëayäya pracoditaù

hariëä nirëayän vacmi vijänaàs tat-prasädataù

çästräntaräëi saïjänan vedäàç cäsya prasädataù

       Even though this text is thus disordered, and moreover it’s meaning is hard for the gods to approach, when things are thus confused in the age of Kali, inspired by Hari to ascertain [the meaning], I shall speak the conclusions, understanding them by His mercy, knowing also, by His mercy, other çästras and the Vedas.

 

2.7-8

deçe deçe tathä granthän dåñövä caiva påthag-vidhän

yathä sa bhagavän vyäsaù säkñän näräyaëaù prabhuù

jagäda bhäratädyeñu tathä vakñye tad-ékñayä

saìkñepät sarva-çästrärthaà bhäratärthänusärataù

nirëaya sarva-çäträëäà bhäratam parikértitam In various lands, also actually seeing varous manuscripts, just as Bhagavän Vyäsa, who is Lord Näräyaëa Himself, narrated in the Bhärata and other works, I too, with vision imparted by Him, briefly state the meaning of all Çästras, in accord with the meaning of the Bhärata. The Bharata is widely declared to be the conclusion of all the Çästras.

 

[Paramananda das]

Regarding reading Mahabharata, why divert your attention in this way? Bhagavatam is also Mahabharata. There are so many books I have presented already, so whatever you have got, just become expert in that. There are many things still yet to be learned.   >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Madhudvisa -- Los Angeles 29 April, 1973