seeing through the eyes of scriptures
Gay gay Gay, no nothing to be "gay" about....
PAHMO
AGTSP
One disciple of Hrdayananda ( das )is very upset with me about my disagreement with his liberal nonsense about blessings gay couples ,that get married.
I pray he stopped this rascaldom...
.
Another person that preaches it is cool to be gay is Amara das ,a socalled disciple of Srila Prabhupada
And Chakra keeps posting this rubbish, http://www.chakra.org/discussions2/GenAug17_11.html
my response:we have had plenty of gays that also where pedofiles in ISKCON, and even some gurus and sannyasis ,do we need to hear your rationalization why you will not stop being gay?
740614rc.par Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that “This is denying the primary necessities of life.” Rayarama, Rayarama. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life. Illicit sex, intoxication… He was first-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left.
Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said, “Swamiji will not be successful because he does not allow free love in his movement.” He says, “That is why I had to leave because there was no place for me and my boyfriend.” Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University.
Prabhupada: That Neil.
Devotee: Yeah, Neil.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Devotee: And he told me that “Swamiji will not be successful in his movement because he will not allow free love.” I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple.
Prabhupada: No, he cannot give up these bad habits.
Pusta-krsna: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do.
Prabhupada: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man to man marriage. Most unnatural.
Devotee: Previously they didn’t allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church. So then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man to man marriage.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers.
Bhagavan: It’s a matter of money.
Prabhupada: And that is freedom. So Raya Ramananda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the church? (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that “This is denying the primary necessities of life.” Rayarama, Rayarama. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life. Illicit sex, intoxication… He was first-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left.
Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said, “Swamiji will not be successful because he does not allow free love in his movement.” He says, “That is why I had to leave because there was no place for me and my boyfriend.” Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University.
Prabhupada: That Neil.
Devotee: Yeah, Neil.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Devotee: And he told me that “Swamiji will not be successful in his movement because he will not allow free love.” I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple.
Prabhupada: No, he cannot give up these bad habits.
Pusta-krsna: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do.
Prabhupada: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man to man marriage. Most unnatural.
Devotee: Previously they didn’t allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church. So then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man to man marriage.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers.
Bhagavan: It’s a matter of money.
Prabhupada: And that is freedom. So Raya Ramananda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the church? (laughs)
I had a discussion with Amara ,and he has no shame about this and keeps preaching being a gay is wonderful and that he has sannyasi friends that tells him they are also gay.
WHAT? Well Umapati recently had to leave sannyasa in ISKCON due to being a homosexual. ...
3:18pmPayonidhi Das
I have a question for you
what isthe idea behind Galva?
what isthe idea behind Galva?
sorry it doubled my question
I am Payonidhi das
3:20pmAmara
Hare Krishna! Dandavats, pleased to meet you.
3:20pmPayonidhi Das
please accept mine
nice to meet you
I have never understood the concept
behind Galva
3:21pmAmara
Our objective is to provide support and outreach to the LGBT community.
As many often feel dejected, unwelcome, misunderstood, and so on.
3:22pmPayonidhi Das
so I hope to be better informed if you will be kind
3:23pmAmara
Everything is on our website, actually. You can go to the "Frequently Asked Questions" section.
http://www.galva108.org
3:24pmPayonidhi Das
ok
lesbian and gays and?
ok well many would consider that preaching to the most fallen
a noble idea
I have never visited it
3:25pmAmara
Yes. Both Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada didn't want anyone to escape from their mercy!
3:25pmPayonidhi Das
so this thirdgender issue
is also what Bhakti tirtha Swami once wrote about
that is nice
3:27pmPayonidhi Das
how about "devotees" with homossexaul and lesbian tendencies as there has been some in ISKCON?
3:27pmAmara
Yes, I discussed this topic with him on several occasions. Are you his disciple or friend?
3:27pmPayonidhi Das
well more like a friend or godnehew if you like
3:28pmAmara
There are very many, from Upendra, Allen Ginsberg, and myself during Srila Prabhupada's day, down to the present time.
3:28pmPayonidhi Das
that was homosexuals or thirdgender
3:28pmAmara
OK. He was my Godbrother.
3:29pmPayonidhi Das
what is the difference really
I knowRohini Kumara that has some problems
3:29pmAmara
The Vedic third gender refers to all types of gender-variant people--homosexuals, transgenders, the intersexed, etc.
3:30pmPayonidhi Das
intersexed?
sorry for my ignorance
3:30pmAmara
Intersex refers to people with both male and female anatomy (formerly known as hermaphroditism).
3:30pmPayonidhi Das
ok thanks
3:31pmAmara
These people also must be welcomed to Krsna. The material body is insignificant.
3:32pmPayonidhi Das
how can Galva help devotees like rohini Kumara and Bhavananda and others?
yes but homosexual activites and so on is often described as demoniac ,so how does these devotees deal with that
as is all illict sex
it seemed to me Srila Prabhupada just advised these devotees to get married to the opposite sex,no?
3:35pmAmara
Everyone must struggle to control their senses. But for this we need support, understanding, kindness, etc.
3:36pmAmara
Homosexuals are forbidden to marry women in our scriptures. Sometimes it is possible for bisexuals to marry, so perhaps Srila Prabhupada was referring to that.
3:36pmPayonidhi Das
ok
I admit I have properly been to imapatient in my own preaching ,but childabuse is something I have no tolerance for
3:37pmAmara
Me neither! GALVA does not support pedophilia whether gay or straight!
3:37pmPayonidhi Das
I recall he said they should get married
yes that is good
I did not think so
I hav soemtimes met lesbians and homosexuals on sankirtana and I do not avoid them based on this
3:39pmPayonidhi Das
as most sankirtana devotees would
3:40pmAmara
Good. Some devotees are very prejudiced but many are also very kind and inclusive to all like Srila Prabhupada was.
3:40pmPayonidhi Das
they are spirit souls and humans
yes i believe that is proper
how do you view gay marriage or lesbian mariage?
3:43pmPayonidhi Das
I was born in Denmark where they allowed this in 1982,but ISKCON as a religous society should never condone it
3:43pmAmara
I view this much like Hridayananda Goswami does. Celibacy is best but otherwise we should try to establish a stable marriage.
3:43pmPayonidhi Das
it may be ahuman rights issue
He blessed a gay couple you mean?
I do have a problem with that
3:44pmAmara
I think ISKCON should at least recognize it at the congregational level, for members who can't follow celibacy and who live outside the temple.
3:44pmPayonidhi Das
ok
that is ok
3:45pmAmara
Because if you don't encourage people to marry they will be promiscuous with many partners, which is even worse.
3:45pmPayonidhi Das
but for a sannyasi to bless gays and lesbians marriage seems very irreligious to me
it is true in Denmark where i was born after the marriage thing the Gay issue seemed solved
3:46pmAmara
I believe his idea was to encourage their commitment to a single partner.
3:46pmPayonidhi Das
and less recruting into this lifestyle took place
well for a sannyasi this is way to liberal in my humble opinion
though I understand
3:47pmAmara
According to our scriptures, gays are born that way. So you are either gay, straight or bisexual from birth. There is no question of recruiting or anything like that.
3:48pmPayonidhi Das
well my understanding is some gets "seduced into this kind of lifestyle"
3:48pmAmara
That's OK. Everyone has their own style of preaching. Some are very conservative and some are more liberal. I think it's good for ISKCON to accommodate all different styles.
3:48pmPayonidhi Das
ok
I can understand that idea,though I may not fully agree
3:49pmAmara
Some gays are celibate, others are married and others are promiscuous, so it's not a question of lifestyle.
3:49pmPayonidhi Das
personally I believe the solution is advocating chanting 64 rounds and transcending this
anartha
3:50pmAmara
Yes, everyone must transcend their sexuality but it usually takes time and practice.
3:50pmPayonidhi Das
and all other kinds of illicit sex ideas
I agree
3:50pmAmara
Everyone is at different levels also...
3:50pmPayonidhi Das
is there any example of thirdgender devotees in sastra''
yes true
3:51pmAmara
The most famous example is of Arjuna as Brihannala.
3:51pmPayonidhi Das
well he was cursed by Urvasi for one year
3:52pmAmara
Or Mitra and Varuna. There are so many examples actually...you may read our article "Hindu Deities and the Third Sex."
3:52pmPayonidhi Das
as he refused to fall for her charms and
she is the great great great grandmother of the Pandavas
3:53pmAmara
Yes, so for one year he was third-gendered. But during this time he set the proper example and was welcomed by the king, even though he was crossdressing.
3:53pmPayonidhi Das
well I will educatewmy self a bit better
he was dressed AS A MALE?
or female?
3:54pmAmara
The saintly king, Virata Maharaja, had no problem with Brihannala's crossdressing and womanly behaviors.
3:54pmPayonidhi Das
so he was dressed as a woman then?
3:54pmAmara
He was dressed in a colorful sari, with bangles, and swinging his hips around.
3:55pmPayonidhi Das
but he never had illcit sex
3:55pmAmara
Yes. A typical what we would say today as transgender.
No, there is no mention of sex.
3:55pmPayonidhi Das
or engaged in ..yes
but if someone takes this example to
3:56pmAmara
We do not advocate any illicit sex in GALVA, either.
3:56pmPayonidhi Das
condone their own homosexaul activites that is irreligious
good
but even when married that is still illict sex
as there can be no marriage between two of the same sex
it isw never allowed in manu Samhita
3:57pmAmara
Yes, but that is only the best they can do. They can live outside the temple therefore and visit.
3:57pmPayonidhi Das
do you agree?
yes, we should never look down on them
put pray for their spiritual wellbeing with all love and compassion
3:58pmAmara
Just like we may allow heterosexual couples do visit the temple, even if they have sex which is not for children.
3:58pmPayonidhi Das
yes visiting is never a problem even for homosexauls or lesbians
but in the asrama there can be no such thing..
3:59pmAmara
Ideally, yes, but some temples do have problems even with this. They are unfriendly toward gays and make them feel unwelcome at the temple.
3:59pmPayonidhi Das
or even illicit sex within marriage
this is not good
there should be open doors for all
as long as they do nto use the rtemple to find partners
4:00pmAmara
Yes, the temple and the ashrama must have strict standards.
4:00pmPayonidhi Das
good we agree on almost everything then
4:01pmAmara
Yes, it seems so. Sometimes devotees forget that we must be kind toward the fallen, not condescending and cruel toward them.
4:01pmPayonidhi Das
I have seen many gays and lesbians come to our temples
4:01pmAmara
In Denmark?
4:01pmPayonidhi Das
well that is the neophyte mentality
yes also
I helped start ISKCON there in 1979
4:02pmAmara
Where are you now? I live in Hawaii.
4:02pmPayonidhi Das
Maryland
4:02pmAmara
Oh, really? I first joined in Wash.D.C.
4:02pmPayonidhi Das
we often had gays and lesbians come to our first temple in Denamrk
4:03pmAmara
I was the first pujari for Sri Sita-Rama.
4:03pmPayonidhi Das
what year
nice
maye yo uknow Narasimha das
black body bookdsitributor
4:03pmAmara
I joined in 1974. Sita-Rama were installed in 1981.
4:03pmPayonidhi Das
ok
4:03pmAmara
No, I moved to Hawaii in 1982.
4:03pmPayonidhi Das
and later yo urealized you was gay?
sorry to ask such a bold question
4:04pmAmara
No. I was always gay from birth. I came out to the devotees a few months after joining.
4:04pmPayonidhi Das
ok
4:04pmAmara
They were very kind and accepting. More so in those days. Now devotees have become more conservative.
4:05pmPayonidhi Das
so it seems completle celibacy is the only solution
4:05pmAmara
Celibacy or else marriage. Most people cannot follow complete celibacy.
4:06pmPayonidhi Das
well amybe protective of other congregation that may be turned of by a couple that is gya or lesbian
well that is sad
4:06pmAmara
Most temples don't mind gay couples nowadays as it's becoming more common. As long as they live outside there should be no problem.
4:07pmPayonidhi Das
gay or lesbian tendency is something Srila Prabhupada also in one case heavely chastised a devotee who was gay maybe it was Upendra
yes as long as they do not show "public affection"
it should be ok
4:08pmAmara
Prabhupada once told Upendra if he was too agitated he should "just find a nice boy and settle down."
4:08pmPayonidhi Das
just no kisisng or holding hadns etc
4:08pmAmara
Yes, of course.
4:08pmPayonidhi Das
really I never saw suh a letter
you have this in writting
at least better than having sex with boys liek Bhavananda
4:09pmAmara
You can read all of these things on our site. I've included everything Srila Prabhupada ever said regarding homosexuality, both good and bad.
4:09pmPayonidhi Das
I met a nepali boy molested by him
very good
4:09pmAmara
Prabhupada didn't mean "boy" he meant another man.
4:10pmPayonidhi Das
yes I undrstand
if those who where homosexauls whould nto become Gurus and sannyasis this is my main concern
4:10pmAmara
I think ISKCON is better nowadays in dealing with pedophiles, both gay and straight.
4:10pmPayonidhi Das
yes that is true
it is very demoniac
4:11pmAmara
There are many nice sannyasis and gurus who are gay but have completely renounced sex.
4:11pmPayonidhi Das
reallu like who
4:11pmAmara
So it doesn't really matter what type of body a person has...anyone can renounce.
4:12pmPayonidhi Das
well I do nto think anyone wiht homosexeuals tendencied should even live in a temple
what to speak of becoming a guru or sannyasi
4:12pmAmara
Then you would have forbidden me from ever becoming a devotee! LOL!
4:12pmPayonidhi Das
then there will be fall down
well at leat you never had illict sex in the temple
4:13pmAmara
I had over twenty wonderful years of living in the temple and doing services for Krsna.
4:13pmPayonidhi Das
and did you have illict sex?
4:13pmAmara
No, of course not. Do you think all gay devotees have illicit sex?
Many are sincere and celibate.
4:14pmPayonidhi Das
sorry I have hard time to believe that
4:14pmAmara
Prabhupada allowed many gay devotees to live in his temples, and they all had homosexual orientation.
4:14pmPayonidhi Das
yes this was the beginning
but times has shown us differently
4:15pmAmara
That is prejudice on your part. Do you think only heterosexuals can be celibate and renounced?
As I said earlier, there are many wonderful gay brahmacaris and sannyasis.
4:15pmPayonidhi Das
no but those who are gays will more likely fall with children than any striaght person
this is why
if I know they are gay I will personally not assocaite with them closely
4:16pmAmara
That is not true. Over 75% of all child abuse cases are committed by heterosexuals.
Well, then you are prejudiced.
4:16pmPayonidhi Das
really
I do not know all cases but the ones I knew where all homosexauls c
not that all homosexauls are pedofiles
4:17pmAmara
Yes, men abusing small girls. One of my best devotee friends had his daughter abused by a devotee schoolmaster, but that doesn't mean we should hate all heterosexuals.
4:17pmPayonidhi Das
you are such a case
yes that is also demoniac
I agree
the point i am making the kids have to be protected at all cost
do you agree?
now many temples do no lkonger allow kids even to stay overnight
so having a homo sexaul Guru and sannyasis is sick c
why should anyone bow to such a person
4:20pmAmara
Because he is completely renounced all material activities and devoted his life to Krsna.
4:20pmPayonidhi Das
no not good enough
unles he is a pure devotee
4:20pmAmara
Why should it matter what type of body someone has? Would you not bow down before a black guru, or a female guru?
4:21pmPayonidhi Das
just liek Kirtananda ,Bhavananda,Rohini Kumara
all homosexauls
4:21pmAmara
Actually, many ISKCON gurus are gay but they are not open about it.
4:21pmPayonidhi Das
and all having sex with boys
well then they are rascals
4:22pmAmara
No one defends their bad behavior. But they are not examples for homosexuals.
4:22pmPayonidhi Das
I am glad yo utell me,I will nto offer obaisences ot any of them imagien I pay ovbaisences ot a gay Guru
4:22pmAmara
Is Ravana the example for heterosexuals?
You have probably already done so many times, because no one knows who is gay and who is not! LOL!
4:22pmPayonidhi Das
no of a sannaysis that dresses up to have illict sex
ravana Sannyasa
yes disgustingly
4:23pmAmara
BV Vaishnava Maharaja, for example, is a wonderful sannyasi who happens to be openly gay yet strictly celibate.
He is admired by all Vaishnavas.
4:24pmPayonidhi Das
from Narayana MNaharaja math?
well that is good he has admitted past mistakes
i know him
4:25pmAmara
There are so many. You should not be prejudiced against sincere devotees who have surrendered their lives to Krsna. It is an offense to view a Vaishnava in terms of their material body type.
4:26pmPayonidhi Das
yes as long as they do not fall down
but they should be honest about their past sins
not cover it up
I can respect Vaisnava maharaja for saying this was my past
those who hide there past is doing a great disservice simply for prestige
4:28pmAmara
What do you mean? All devotees have a sinful past...
4:28pmPayonidhi Das
yes that is true
or mostly
4:28pmAmara
Yes, I agree. It is not good to hide. That's why I believe in being honest and open about oneself.
4:28pmPayonidhi Das
but if one comes from such a very sinful past one should admit it
open with one self and others
4:29pmAmara
Devotees should be honest, open, straightforward, etc.
4:29pmPayonidhi Das
yes
that is our philosophy'
4:29pmAmara
I think you are confusing sin with nature.
4:29pmPayonidhi Das
I liek to know if I am sending a new devotee to be initiated by a former gay
4:29pmAmara
I was also gay before becoming a devotee but I never had sex before.
4:30pmPayonidhi Das
and becomeing a devotee made you gay?
one minut
4:30pmAmara
Gay does not mean having sex! It just means you were born with homosexual orientation.
You are attracted by nature to the same sex.
So I was gay before becoming a devotee, but I never had sex before. So how is that anymore sinful than a straight devotee who had so much illicit sex before coming to the temple?
4:32pmPayonidhi Das
lets talk later I have to make offering
toKrsna and Giriraja
4:32pmAmara
OK. Hare Krishna!
4:32pmPayonidhi Das
thanks for talking to me I will get back to you
Hare krsna I appriciate your openness
and honesty
4:33pmAmara
Jaya Prabhupada!
4:33pmPayonidhi Das
all glories to Sri Nama Prabhu
that reveals our real spiritual nature
4:45pmAmara is offline.
I have a question for you
what isthe idea behind Galva?
what isthe idea behind Galva?
sorry it doubled my question
I am Payonidhi das
3:20pmAmara
Hare Krishna! Dandavats, pleased to meet you.
3:20pmPayonidhi Das
please accept mine
nice to meet you
I have never understood the concept
behind Galva
3:21pmAmara
Our objective is to provide support and outreach to the LGBT community.
As many often feel dejected, unwelcome, misunderstood, and so on.
3:22pmPayonidhi Das
so I hope to be better informed if you will be kind
3:23pmAmara
Everything is on our website, actually. You can go to the "Frequently Asked Questions" section.
http://www.galva108.org
3:24pmPayonidhi Das
ok
lesbian and gays and?
ok well many would consider that preaching to the most fallen
a noble idea
I have never visited it
3:25pmAmara
Yes. Both Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada didn't want anyone to escape from their mercy!
3:25pmPayonidhi Das
so this thirdgender issue
is also what Bhakti tirtha Swami once wrote about
that is nice
3:27pmPayonidhi Das
how about "devotees" with homossexaul and lesbian tendencies as there has been some in ISKCON?
3:27pmAmara
Yes, I discussed this topic with him on several occasions. Are you his disciple or friend?
3:27pmPayonidhi Das
well more like a friend or godnehew if you like
3:28pmAmara
There are very many, from Upendra, Allen Ginsberg, and myself during Srila Prabhupada's day, down to the present time.
3:28pmPayonidhi Das
that was homosexuals or thirdgender
3:28pmAmara
OK. He was my Godbrother.
3:29pmPayonidhi Das
what is the difference really
I knowRohini Kumara that has some problems
3:29pmAmara
The Vedic third gender refers to all types of gender-variant people--homosexuals, transgenders, the intersexed, etc.
3:30pmPayonidhi Das
intersexed?
sorry for my ignorance
3:30pmAmara
Intersex refers to people with both male and female anatomy (formerly known as hermaphroditism).
3:30pmPayonidhi Das
ok thanks
3:31pmAmara
These people also must be welcomed to Krsna. The material body is insignificant.
3:32pmPayonidhi Das
how can Galva help devotees like rohini Kumara and Bhavananda and others?
yes but homosexual activites and so on is often described as demoniac ,so how does these devotees deal with that
as is all illict sex
it seemed to me Srila Prabhupada just advised these devotees to get married to the opposite sex,no?
3:35pmAmara
Everyone must struggle to control their senses. But for this we need support, understanding, kindness, etc.
3:36pmAmara
Homosexuals are forbidden to marry women in our scriptures. Sometimes it is possible for bisexuals to marry, so perhaps Srila Prabhupada was referring to that.
3:36pmPayonidhi Das
ok
I admit I have properly been to imapatient in my own preaching ,but childabuse is something I have no tolerance for
3:37pmAmara
Me neither! GALVA does not support pedophilia whether gay or straight!
3:37pmPayonidhi Das
I recall he said they should get married
yes that is good
I did not think so
I hav soemtimes met lesbians and homosexuals on sankirtana and I do not avoid them based on this
3:39pmPayonidhi Das
as most sankirtana devotees would
3:40pmAmara
Good. Some devotees are very prejudiced but many are also very kind and inclusive to all like Srila Prabhupada was.
3:40pmPayonidhi Das
they are spirit souls and humans
yes i believe that is proper
how do you view gay marriage or lesbian mariage?
3:43pmPayonidhi Das
I was born in Denmark where they allowed this in 1982,but ISKCON as a religous society should never condone it
3:43pmAmara
I view this much like Hridayananda Goswami does. Celibacy is best but otherwise we should try to establish a stable marriage.
3:43pmPayonidhi Das
it may be ahuman rights issue
He blessed a gay couple you mean?
I do have a problem with that
3:44pmAmara
I think ISKCON should at least recognize it at the congregational level, for members who can't follow celibacy and who live outside the temple.
3:44pmPayonidhi Das
ok
that is ok
3:45pmAmara
Because if you don't encourage people to marry they will be promiscuous with many partners, which is even worse.
3:45pmPayonidhi Das
but for a sannyasi to bless gays and lesbians marriage seems very irreligious to me
it is true in Denmark where i was born after the marriage thing the Gay issue seemed solved
3:46pmAmara
I believe his idea was to encourage their commitment to a single partner.
3:46pmPayonidhi Das
and less recruting into this lifestyle took place
well for a sannyasi this is way to liberal in my humble opinion
though I understand
3:47pmAmara
According to our scriptures, gays are born that way. So you are either gay, straight or bisexual from birth. There is no question of recruiting or anything like that.
3:48pmPayonidhi Das
well my understanding is some gets "seduced into this kind of lifestyle"
3:48pmAmara
That's OK. Everyone has their own style of preaching. Some are very conservative and some are more liberal. I think it's good for ISKCON to accommodate all different styles.
3:48pmPayonidhi Das
ok
I can understand that idea,though I may not fully agree
3:49pmAmara
Some gays are celibate, others are married and others are promiscuous, so it's not a question of lifestyle.
3:49pmPayonidhi Das
personally I believe the solution is advocating chanting 64 rounds and transcending this
anartha
3:50pmAmara
Yes, everyone must transcend their sexuality but it usually takes time and practice.
3:50pmPayonidhi Das
and all other kinds of illicit sex ideas
I agree
3:50pmAmara
Everyone is at different levels also...
3:50pmPayonidhi Das
is there any example of thirdgender devotees in sastra''
yes true
3:51pmAmara
The most famous example is of Arjuna as Brihannala.
3:51pmPayonidhi Das
well he was cursed by Urvasi for one year
3:52pmAmara
Or Mitra and Varuna. There are so many examples actually...you may read our article "Hindu Deities and the Third Sex."
3:52pmPayonidhi Das
as he refused to fall for her charms and
she is the great great great grandmother of the Pandavas
3:53pmAmara
Yes, so for one year he was third-gendered. But during this time he set the proper example and was welcomed by the king, even though he was crossdressing.
3:53pmPayonidhi Das
well I will educatewmy self a bit better
he was dressed AS A MALE?
or female?
3:54pmAmara
The saintly king, Virata Maharaja, had no problem with Brihannala's crossdressing and womanly behaviors.
3:54pmPayonidhi Das
so he was dressed as a woman then?
3:54pmAmara
He was dressed in a colorful sari, with bangles, and swinging his hips around.
3:55pmPayonidhi Das
but he never had illcit sex
3:55pmAmara
Yes. A typical what we would say today as transgender.
No, there is no mention of sex.
3:55pmPayonidhi Das
or engaged in ..yes
but if someone takes this example to
3:56pmAmara
We do not advocate any illicit sex in GALVA, either.
3:56pmPayonidhi Das
condone their own homosexaul activites that is irreligious
good
but even when married that is still illict sex
as there can be no marriage between two of the same sex
it isw never allowed in manu Samhita
3:57pmAmara
Yes, but that is only the best they can do. They can live outside the temple therefore and visit.
3:57pmPayonidhi Das
do you agree?
yes, we should never look down on them
put pray for their spiritual wellbeing with all love and compassion
3:58pmAmara
Just like we may allow heterosexual couples do visit the temple, even if they have sex which is not for children.
3:58pmPayonidhi Das
yes visiting is never a problem even for homosexauls or lesbians
but in the asrama there can be no such thing..
3:59pmAmara
Ideally, yes, but some temples do have problems even with this. They are unfriendly toward gays and make them feel unwelcome at the temple.
3:59pmPayonidhi Das
or even illicit sex within marriage
this is not good
there should be open doors for all
as long as they do nto use the rtemple to find partners
4:00pmAmara
Yes, the temple and the ashrama must have strict standards.
4:00pmPayonidhi Das
good we agree on almost everything then
4:01pmAmara
Yes, it seems so. Sometimes devotees forget that we must be kind toward the fallen, not condescending and cruel toward them.
4:01pmPayonidhi Das
I have seen many gays and lesbians come to our temples
4:01pmAmara
In Denmark?
4:01pmPayonidhi Das
well that is the neophyte mentality
yes also
I helped start ISKCON there in 1979
4:02pmAmara
Where are you now? I live in Hawaii.
4:02pmPayonidhi Das
Maryland
4:02pmAmara
Oh, really? I first joined in Wash.D.C.
4:02pmPayonidhi Das
we often had gays and lesbians come to our first temple in Denamrk
4:03pmAmara
I was the first pujari for Sri Sita-Rama.
4:03pmPayonidhi Das
what year
nice
maye yo uknow Narasimha das
black body bookdsitributor
4:03pmAmara
I joined in 1974. Sita-Rama were installed in 1981.
4:03pmPayonidhi Das
ok
4:03pmAmara
No, I moved to Hawaii in 1982.
4:03pmPayonidhi Das
and later yo urealized you was gay?
sorry to ask such a bold question
4:04pmAmara
No. I was always gay from birth. I came out to the devotees a few months after joining.
4:04pmPayonidhi Das
ok
4:04pmAmara
They were very kind and accepting. More so in those days. Now devotees have become more conservative.
4:05pmPayonidhi Das
so it seems completle celibacy is the only solution
4:05pmAmara
Celibacy or else marriage. Most people cannot follow complete celibacy.
4:06pmPayonidhi Das
well amybe protective of other congregation that may be turned of by a couple that is gya or lesbian
well that is sad
4:06pmAmara
Most temples don't mind gay couples nowadays as it's becoming more common. As long as they live outside there should be no problem.
4:07pmPayonidhi Das
gay or lesbian tendency is something Srila Prabhupada also in one case heavely chastised a devotee who was gay maybe it was Upendra
yes as long as they do not show "public affection"
it should be ok
4:08pmAmara
Prabhupada once told Upendra if he was too agitated he should "just find a nice boy and settle down."
4:08pmPayonidhi Das
just no kisisng or holding hadns etc
4:08pmAmara
Yes, of course.
4:08pmPayonidhi Das
really I never saw suh a letter
you have this in writting
at least better than having sex with boys liek Bhavananda
4:09pmAmara
You can read all of these things on our site. I've included everything Srila Prabhupada ever said regarding homosexuality, both good and bad.
4:09pmPayonidhi Das
I met a nepali boy molested by him
very good
4:09pmAmara
Prabhupada didn't mean "boy" he meant another man.
4:10pmPayonidhi Das
yes I undrstand
if those who where homosexauls whould nto become Gurus and sannyasis this is my main concern
4:10pmAmara
I think ISKCON is better nowadays in dealing with pedophiles, both gay and straight.
4:10pmPayonidhi Das
yes that is true
it is very demoniac
4:11pmAmara
There are many nice sannyasis and gurus who are gay but have completely renounced sex.
4:11pmPayonidhi Das
reallu like who
4:11pmAmara
So it doesn't really matter what type of body a person has...anyone can renounce.
4:12pmPayonidhi Das
well I do nto think anyone wiht homosexeuals tendencied should even live in a temple
what to speak of becoming a guru or sannyasi
4:12pmAmara
Then you would have forbidden me from ever becoming a devotee! LOL!
4:12pmPayonidhi Das
then there will be fall down
well at leat you never had illict sex in the temple
4:13pmAmara
I had over twenty wonderful years of living in the temple and doing services for Krsna.
4:13pmPayonidhi Das
and did you have illict sex?
4:13pmAmara
No, of course not. Do you think all gay devotees have illicit sex?
Many are sincere and celibate.
4:14pmPayonidhi Das
sorry I have hard time to believe that
4:14pmAmara
Prabhupada allowed many gay devotees to live in his temples, and they all had homosexual orientation.
4:14pmPayonidhi Das
yes this was the beginning
but times has shown us differently
4:15pmAmara
That is prejudice on your part. Do you think only heterosexuals can be celibate and renounced?
As I said earlier, there are many wonderful gay brahmacaris and sannyasis.
4:15pmPayonidhi Das
no but those who are gays will more likely fall with children than any striaght person
this is why
if I know they are gay I will personally not assocaite with them closely
4:16pmAmara
That is not true. Over 75% of all child abuse cases are committed by heterosexuals.
Well, then you are prejudiced.
4:16pmPayonidhi Das
really
I do not know all cases but the ones I knew where all homosexauls c
not that all homosexauls are pedofiles
4:17pmAmara
Yes, men abusing small girls. One of my best devotee friends had his daughter abused by a devotee schoolmaster, but that doesn't mean we should hate all heterosexuals.
4:17pmPayonidhi Das
you are such a case
yes that is also demoniac
I agree
the point i am making the kids have to be protected at all cost
do you agree?
now many temples do no lkonger allow kids even to stay overnight
so having a homo sexaul Guru and sannyasis is sick c
why should anyone bow to such a person
4:20pmAmara
Because he is completely renounced all material activities and devoted his life to Krsna.
4:20pmPayonidhi Das
no not good enough
unles he is a pure devotee
4:20pmAmara
Why should it matter what type of body someone has? Would you not bow down before a black guru, or a female guru?
4:21pmPayonidhi Das
just liek Kirtananda ,Bhavananda,Rohini Kumara
all homosexauls
4:21pmAmara
Actually, many ISKCON gurus are gay but they are not open about it.
4:21pmPayonidhi Das
and all having sex with boys
well then they are rascals
4:22pmAmara
No one defends their bad behavior. But they are not examples for homosexuals.
4:22pmPayonidhi Das
I am glad yo utell me,I will nto offer obaisences ot any of them imagien I pay ovbaisences ot a gay Guru
4:22pmAmara
Is Ravana the example for heterosexuals?
You have probably already done so many times, because no one knows who is gay and who is not! LOL!
4:22pmPayonidhi Das
no of a sannaysis that dresses up to have illict sex
ravana Sannyasa
yes disgustingly
4:23pmAmara
BV Vaishnava Maharaja, for example, is a wonderful sannyasi who happens to be openly gay yet strictly celibate.
He is admired by all Vaishnavas.
4:24pmPayonidhi Das
from Narayana MNaharaja math?
well that is good he has admitted past mistakes
i know him
4:25pmAmara
There are so many. You should not be prejudiced against sincere devotees who have surrendered their lives to Krsna. It is an offense to view a Vaishnava in terms of their material body type.
4:26pmPayonidhi Das
yes as long as they do not fall down
but they should be honest about their past sins
not cover it up
I can respect Vaisnava maharaja for saying this was my past
those who hide there past is doing a great disservice simply for prestige
4:28pmAmara
What do you mean? All devotees have a sinful past...
4:28pmPayonidhi Das
yes that is true
or mostly
4:28pmAmara
Yes, I agree. It is not good to hide. That's why I believe in being honest and open about oneself.
4:28pmPayonidhi Das
but if one comes from such a very sinful past one should admit it
open with one self and others
4:29pmAmara
Devotees should be honest, open, straightforward, etc.
4:29pmPayonidhi Das
yes
that is our philosophy'
4:29pmAmara
I think you are confusing sin with nature.
4:29pmPayonidhi Das
I liek to know if I am sending a new devotee to be initiated by a former gay
4:29pmAmara
I was also gay before becoming a devotee but I never had sex before.
4:30pmPayonidhi Das
and becomeing a devotee made you gay?
one minut
4:30pmAmara
Gay does not mean having sex! It just means you were born with homosexual orientation.
You are attracted by nature to the same sex.
So I was gay before becoming a devotee, but I never had sex before. So how is that anymore sinful than a straight devotee who had so much illicit sex before coming to the temple?
4:32pmPayonidhi Das
lets talk later I have to make offering
toKrsna and Giriraja
4:32pmAmara
OK. Hare Krishna!
4:32pmPayonidhi Das
thanks for talking to me I will get back to you
Hare krsna I appriciate your openness
and honesty
4:33pmAmara
Jaya Prabhupada!
4:33pmPayonidhi Das
all glories to Sri Nama Prabhu
that reveals our real spiritual nature
4:45pmAmara is offline.
Views: 1
Comment by Payonidhi das on December 3, 2009 at 4:51am
- Delete Comment
It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life. (SB 3.20.26)
JSD 6.5 Slaughterhouse Civilization
Srila Prabhupada: The priests are after money. They are not first class; they are low-class men. This is the reason that Christianity has fallen down. The priests cannot speak straightforwardly. There is a straightforward commandment–”Thou shalt not kill.” But because people are already killing, the priests are afraid to present the commandment straightforwardly. Now they are even granting man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests are sermonizing on this idea of man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become! Previously was there any conception like this, at least outside America? Nobody thought that a man could be married to another man. What is this? And the priests are supporting it. Do you know that? So what is their standard?
710725SB.NY Lectures
And what is the tapasya? That is also… Brahmacaryena. Brahmacaryena. Brahmacaryena means restricted sex life. Real meaning is no sex life, no sex, celibacy, completely. This is tapasya. Therefore, according to Vedic culture, the first beginning of life is brahmacari. (break) But in the brahmacari life there is no sex life. Only in the grhastha life there is sex life, married life. I was reading the other day a magazine, Watch… What is that? Watchtower. So this paper was criticizing so many immoral activities in the Christian world. And one item I was surprised to read that a Christian priest has sanctioned marriage between man to man. That was written there. I do not wish to discuss all those things, but people are degrading for want of this tapasya. People are not taught how to execute tapasya life, tapasvi life. Simply by criticizing will not do. Practically you have to be trained in the life of tapasya. Then it will be effective. Just like we are doing. Here, in our Krsna consciousness movement, in every center, everyone, at least who are living within this temple, must get up at four o’clock to perform the aratrika. This morning I was asking somebody that if you cannot rise, then you cannot live in this temple. Because this temple is meant for tapasya, not for extravagancy. Unless you follow the life of tapasya, you cannot make progress.
740611r2.par Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. They’re after money. So they are less than sudras. That is the cause that Christianity has fallen down, that they cannot speak straightly, or otherwise… It is straight commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” And because people are killing, they’re… Now they are give man-to-man marriage, what to speak of other things. The priests, they are sermonizing this man-to-man marriage. Just see how degraded they have become. Whether any conception… At least, outside America, nobody knows that a man can be married with another man. What is this? And they’re supporting it. You know that?
750521rc.mel Conversations
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of high percentage. I said that even a small percentage, there must be some ideal men. At least people will see that here is the ideal man. Just like we are having. Because they are chanting and dancing, many outsiders are coming and they are also learning, they are also offering obeisances. And gradually they are offering their service: “Please accept me.” The example is better than precept. If you have an ideal group of men, then people will automatically learn. That is wanted. But don’t mind, I don’t find any ideal group of men. Even in the priests they are going to hospital for their drinking habit. I saw in some times before in a hospital, five thousand patients, alcoholic patients, priest. Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosexuality, then where is ideal character?
760108rc.nel Conversations
Prabhupada: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that “Thou shall not kill;” they say, “Thou shall not murder.” They are molding. Now this homosexuality they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.
Acyutananda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosexuals. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion?
770428rc.bom Conversations
Prabhupada: No, they are drinking. They are having homosex. They are encouraging homosexuals, giving man-to-man marriage. You know that? This is going on. Doing everything nonsense.
N98:720928MW.LA conversations
Prabhupada: …the injunction of the scripture, and still they say, “We do not know.” So many drunkards priest, they are going to hospital for treatment ,and they are eating, and they are getting married man to man, and still they say, “We do not know what we have done.” Just see how cheaters they are.
Jayatirtha: In the last six years…
Prabhupada: Hm?
Jayatirtha: In the last six years in the Catholic church, 25,000 priests have left and taken up…
Prabhupada: 25,000?
Jayatirtha: 25,000 in six years.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Jayatirtha: Have left the Catholic church, priests.
Prabhupada: Left.
Jayatirtha: Ordained priests, they have left and gone off to marry or whatever. Especially they are concerned that they can’t marry. Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.
Prabhupada: Marrying? They are marrying man to man ,what to speak of marrying. Sodomy.
Jayatirtha: So that’s the alternative. Either they’re leaving or they’re marrying man to man.
Prabhupada: Homosexuality. They are supporting homosexuality. So degraded, and still they say, “What we have done?” They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation.
740614rc.par Conversations
Prabhupada: Yes. Some of our men, at least one, left our association. He thought that “This is denying the primary necessities of life.” Rayarama, Rayarama. He left for this reason, that we do not allow the bare necessities of life. Illicit sex, intoxication… He was first-class criminal on this account, but he could not give it up. Therefore he left.
Devotee: Yes, I spoke with him in San Francisco, and he said, “Swamiji will not be successful because he does not allow free love in his movement.” He says, “That is why I had to leave because there was no place for me and my boyfriend.” Even he was not attracted to having a girl, but he had a boy. That boy used to be also your typist. He was from Harvard University.
Prabhupada: That Neil.
Devotee: Yeah, Neil.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Devotee: And he told me that “Swamiji will not be successful in his movement because he will not allow free love.” I just saw him in San Francisco before I went to India two and a half years ago. We were trying to get him to come back to the temple.
Prabhupada: No, he cannot give up these bad habits.
Pusta-krsna: You said in Geneva that no one has died from giving up cigarettes or illicit sex. So it is not so hard to do.
Prabhupada: No, it is not hard. Now the Christian church is giving liberty, man to man marriage. Most unnatural.
Devotee: Previously they didn’t allow divorce. The first principle was there is no question of divorce. Then so many people began leaving the Catholic Church. So then they allowed divorce. And then they did not allow abortion. So again so many people left the religion. Now they allow abortion. And now they are allowing man to man marriage.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Devotee: They compromise just to keep their followers.
Bhagavan: It’s a matter of money.
Prabhupada: And that is freedom. So Raya Ramananda left because such freedom is not allowed here. So we have to allow this freedom like the church? (laughs)
- Delete CommentThe Homosexual Appetite of a Man for Another Man is Demoniac
- Delete CommentSo according to Amara there is many homosexuals or former homosexual Gurus and sannyasis in ISKCON,I find this very sad....this should be honest before becoming Gurus and sannyasis,then the candidate can choose (or rather choose not to have anything to do with them)
- Delete Comment
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
This is a conversation I had with Amara das to understand how infiltrated the gay and lesbian "society" is infiltrated in ISKCON .
Devotees should know if their Guru or GBC was a former Gay,we should all have right to choose if we will work with such a person.
Take initiaion etc (for new devotees) or even pay obaisences or associate with them
your servant
Payonidhi das
I personally will want to know, so I can choose not to deal with such a person...I do not trust any person who is gay or lesbian...or has such tendencies from the past.If someone is a former gay they should step down from sannyasa and Guruship,,they will only want to lord it over.He claims there is many former gays that is still Gurus, all Gurus and sannyasi and devotees that have such tendencies should come out of the closet and not hide.....clearly Hrdayananda Swami is off in blessing gay couples, he still think he is ok,this is really nonsens..for that alone he should not be a GBC.Those who at least admit their past sins in this regard has some hope of purification..otherwise at any time we may have more homosexual scandals in ISKCON........no more Gay Gurus, GBC's and sannyasis please (or TP's..as there was one in Boston a few years back...totally on a powertrip and totaly neophyte)
- Delete Comment
"Your siddhanta is correct to the sastra and in this way go on reading books and have the correct perception and Krsna will help you. siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa iha haite krsna lage sudrdha manasa. A sincere student should not neglect the discussions of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such conclusions strenghten the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna. You should always be alert in undestanding the sastric conclusions that will help you, otherwise we can be misled by bogus philosophies. I am very pleased that you are studying the books. That will make you happy and successful."(
- Delete Comment
Homosexuality
Neither heterosexuality nor homosexuality are “natural.” Heterosexual desire is a perverted reflection of our original love for Krishna and homosexuality is another twist. Shrila Prabhupada: “The homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane man in the ordinary course of life.” (SB 3.20.26)
Due to the influence of Kali-yuga, homosexuality is now a common problem. As Kali-yuga advances we will have to accommodate more and more people with past perverse lives and give them the opportunity for purification. If homosexuals sincerely come to Krishna consciousness, what advice should we give them?
In the Vedic culture, heterosexual desires can be accommodated within the grihastha-ashrama, but there is no scope for accommodating homosexual desires. Shrila Prabhupada recommended marriage (to a woman!) for a disciple with homosexual desires. This advice may not seem very practical, for the homosexual’s attraction is to men rather than women. But homosexual or heterosexual, the disease is lust. Homosexuality means that the lust has increased to an abnormally high degree. Marriage means to channel that lust in a manner acceptable within the Vedic culture.
Anyway, homosexuals coming to Krishna consciousness will need special guidance from senior devotees. The homosexual must be understood as an individual person and be given proper facility after frank discussion. He should understand his condition to be especially fallen, but should be confident that by Krishna consciousness, all difficulties can be overcome. And other devotees should be sympathetic and understanding with such sincere souls.
As with any conditioned soul accepted for devotional service, sheltering homosexuals in the ashrama is a risk. As with a heterosexual, we shall first have to see if a homosexual is sufficiently self-controlled before he may be allowed to stay in the ashrama, remembering that, whereas heterosexual brahmacaris are sheltered from the objects of their attraction in the brahmacari-ashrama, the homosexual is surrounded by them. We must be compassionate, but we cannot sacrifice our standards of purity.
- Delete Comment
Homosexuality
We should not think of a person, especially a devotee, as a homosexual. We should not say, "So-and-so dasa is a homosexual." He is actually a person, a spirit soul. No one is an alcoholic or a psychotic or any other such designation. The con ditioned soul may have certain tendencies, in cluding a tendency for homosexuality, but by constitutional nature we are all eternal servants of the Lord, pure and blissful.When I was a teenager, the first book I ever read about homosexuality described it as a disease. The psychiatrist told how he cured his patients of their homosexual tendency. This view might be con sidered somewhat old-fashioned, since nowadays people more likely accept the premise that they are homosexually oriented and that such an orien tation cannot be changed.
Even if we grant the premise that someone is a homosexual, there is still a course of action if he or she wishes to make advancement in spiritual life. Srila Prabhupada was approached a number of times by devotees who told him of this tendency. His response was that the person should be mar ried. He never endorsed homosexual activity. He used to repeat, with disgust and criticism, a story he had read that a sect in the Christian church gave sanction to homosexual marriage. And he has written in a purport:
It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.—BhSg. 3.20.26 purport
Srlla Prabhupada saw homosexual tendencies as excessive and perverted lust. The legitimate cor rection for lust is self-control and purification by religious marriage. If a person of homosexual tendency thinks it is impossible to be married to the opposite sex, then he or she is faced with only one other alternative: celibacy. These are the same two alternatives that Srlla Prabhupada wrote to me in a letter when I had mentioned to him of my sex agitation. He said one can either engage oneself fully in Krsna conscious ness, and thus lose all desire for sex, or become religiously married. But no immoral sex. .
A person who has been an active homosexual or feels that he or she is inherently a homosexual should respond to this by accepting a life of full celibacy. The so-called curse can therefore become a blessing.In order to lead a life of celibacy, such a person may have to make certain adjustments in mixing with persons of the same sex. The same general principle holds: one should not associate intimately with persons with whom one is likely to be sexually attracted. This is true not only of homosexuals but of all celibates. They should avoid genital sex as well as pregenital sexual behavior, and this implies avoiding personal relationships of human affection which are likely to be genitally expressed.
- Delete CommentPersonally I consider the opinion expressed by Satsvarupa Maharaja about homosexuals to liberal Prabhupada was more conservative:
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