Questions and answers about Jaya and Vijaya and Lord Caitanya

[Paramananda das]

AGTSP

This is based on questions by Bhaktin Raisa and my answers

I believe many devotees will find this very interesting and enliven their KC.

ys

Payonidhi das

Iso 6: He who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, who sees all living entities as His parts and parcels, and who sees the Supreme Lord within everything never hates anything or any being.

Iso 7: One who always sees all living entities as spiritual sparks, in quality one with the Lord, becomes a true knower of things. What, then, can be illusion or anxiety for him?

Bhaktin Raisa

Yes i have read isopanishad and exactly this is wats resonates i. My mind but his seems like stepping sone wich i havent reahed et becuase i think that but i cant feel that yet

Do you understand what i mean?

yes we have to embrace this transcedental understanding

I just feel like im missing something i get it bu. Im not there yet

Payonidhi das

Krsna also told Arjuna about brama jnana but still told him to figth against the demoniac Kauravas

you follow?

I still feel angry when i know they are part of Krishna

because demons anger devotees

they anger Krsna also

so it is natural

those who please Krsna do not mostly anger us

Bhaktin Raisa:

Haha yes but arjuna is so perplexing to me

Payonidhi das:

unless jealous of someone more advanced in KC

one sec

why?

Bhaktin Raisa:

He is so pure that he could let go of his material illsions so quickly

I am still bewildered after hearing the verses of isopanisad over and over in my head

Payonidhi das:

well he is non different from Nara rsi

yes we all are

Nara rishi?

because our mind is bewildered by the modes of nature

like in Nara Narayana Rsi

Bhaktin Raisa"

It drives me insane! I feel like suh a rascal because i still cant ralize these simple instructions

are you familiar

No?

Well does he have another name?

Payonidhi das:

these are very deep to be situated in these deeps instructions of Isopnisad so one should constantly hear from a siksa Guru to help understand

Krsna and Arjuna are not differnt from the sages Nara Narayana risis

they are explained in the 12 Canto of SB

Bhaktin Raisa:

I still dont folllow on the rishis thing

Is this a group of sages?

Or a kind of

Payonidhi das:

that is because you do not know who Nara Narayana rsis are

let me find the sloka from first canto that describes them

hang on

Bhaktin Raisa:

Ok thanku

Payonidhi das:

SB 1.3.9: In the fourth incarnation, the Lord became Nara and Nārāyaṇa, the twin sons of the wife of King Dharma. Thus He undertook severe and exemplary penances to control the senses.

http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/9/en

Bhaktin Raisa:

Ok so arjuna & Krishna re nara narayana rishi

?

Payonidhi das:

http://vedabase.net/sb/12/8/en

yes they are also Nara Naryana rsi

I know this is maybe very deep for you?

now let me give you the way to understand this more clearly

have you read the pastime when Mahavisnu stole the children of the Brahmanas in Krsna book?

Bhaktin Raisa:

Right now im on the salvation of shalva

Payonidhi das:

SB 10.89.59: Although all your desires are completely fulfilled, O best of exalted personalities, for the benefit of the people in general you should continue to exemplify religious behavior as the sages Nara and Nārāyaṇa.

Mahavisnu spoke this

Bhaktin Raisa:

I understand this.

Payonidhi das:

in the Krsna book Prabhupada states:

Now after killing all these unwanted demons, you will please again come back to Me. Both of you are incarnations of the great sage Nara-Narayana. Although you are both complete in yourselves, to protect the devotees and to annihilate the demons and especially to establish religious principles in the world so that peace and tranquillity may continue, you are teaching the basic principles of factual religion so that the people of the world may follow you and thereby be peaceful and prosperous."

Bhaktin Raisa:

Are jagai and madai also jaya and vijaya?

Payonidhi das:

yes

I have written an artikel about this

on my block

Ok but hadnt they already fullfield theyre 3 demons births with shisupala and twisted tooth?

http://nimaipandit.ning.com/profiles/blogs/jaya-and-vijayaand-finally

the got special mercy read this link above and you will understand

dear vaisnavas

please accept my humble obaisences

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

How could Jaya and Vijya just have returned to Vaikuntha ---? They are in Goloka Vrindavan dancing with Lord Caitanya, they got cursed by the 4 kumaras but it was a blessing so they could join Lord Caitanya, lets pray for their mercy as did Bhaktivinoda Thakura .How could they have returned to be doorkeepers in Vaikuntha ,they would have always longed for the Golden form of Lord Gauranga?Not possible...I am intrested if any vaisnavas would objct to this? It makes sense...(if there is still a form in Vaikuntha with Jaya and Vijaya Lord Caitanya would surely give them another form in His lilas..it is not speculation it makes sense)..we pray Krsna may reveal this ...

And Prabhupada mentions that sometimes inhabitants of Vaikuntha gets elevated to Goloka Vrindavan surely all those in Gaura lila did,Mahaprabhu would not be without these devotees

your humble servant

Payonidhi das

they got the names Jagannatha das and Madhava

this is my opnion

some may think it is speculation , no it is not

Bhaktin Raisa:

When they were on earth they defame devotees of Sri Gauranga?

Payonidhi das:

no

they engaged in sin mainly

they where mostly not offensive to devotees

but liked the chanting of Hare Krsna

Bhaktin Raisa:

Then wouldn this be their 4th birth as demons?

Payonidhi das:

and sometimes danced all drunk

yes this is special lila

by Lord Caitanyas mercy the curse given by the Kumaras became a blessing

because they became elevated from Vaikuntha to Goloka by rendering this nice" demon" seva hahahahaha

 

you follow?

Bhaktin Raisa:

I understand but The kumaras said 3 births of demons

Then why one more?

Payonidhi das:

yes but Lord Caitanya took mercy on them

and thus they got this fourth birth and got Lord Caitanyas mercy

Bhaktin Raisa:

Before he came as Lord Caitanya u mean?

Payonidhi das:

so it all ended well

Lord Caitanya is Sat cid ananda He is Krsna Himself

Bhaktin Raisa:

I know they kind of wait on this etherael plane where they speak to narad and ask him when is time

and knows everything

Payonidhi das:

where is that mentioned?

Jaya and Vijaya appearing in Gaura lila is no specualtion

Well they wondered unyil the lord apperaed so then heycould take birh

Jagāi and Mādhāi, the eighty-ninth and ninetieth branches of the tree, were the greatest recipients of Lord Caitanya's mercy. These two brothers were the witnesses who proved that Lord Caitanya was rightly named Patita-pāvana, "the deliverer of the fallen souls."
—Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 10.120,

purport by Srila Prabhupada

In the Gaura-gaṇoddeśa-dīpikā (115), it is said that the two brothers Jagāi and Mādhāi were formerly the doorkeepers named Jaya and Vijaya. Jagāi and Mādhāi were born in respectable Brahmin families, but they adopted the professions of thieves and rogues, and thus became implicated in all kinds of undesirable activities, especially woman-hunting, intoxication, and gambling. Later, Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda initiated them, and they got the chance to chant the Hare Krishna mahā-mantra. As a result of chanting, both brothers became exalted devotees of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. The descendants of Mādhāi still exist, and they are respectable Brahmins. The tombs of these two brothers, Jagāi and Mādhāi, are in a place known as Ghoṣahāṭa, or Mādhāitalā-grāma, which is situated about one mile south of Katwa. It is said[by whom?] that Śrī Gopīcaraṇa dāsa Bābājī established a temple of Nitāi-Gaura at this place about two hundred fifty years ago.

 you follow?

Bhaktin Raisa:

i dnt think this is speculatin i just want to know when and were they were told to take this 4th birth

like i know were they got the curse of the previous 3 demon births

Payonidhi das

yes but in the 4th birth they became pure devotees of Lord Caitanya

Bhaktin Raisa:

i understand that

but they were cursed by the Kumaras inVaikntha

were and when were they tld of their brths asJagai and Madai is my question

Payonidhi das:

so they could have gone back to Vaikuntha and continue as doorkeepers but Lord Caitanya gave them special mercy

the Kumaras also did not know ,

they cursed them for 3 birth to become demons or 7 birth as devotees

so take a pic

Bhaktin Raisa:

but i am still confused when they died as shisupal and twisted tooth how did they come to know that they were to take birth again? did Lord Visnu tell them or Narad

Payonidhi das"

well these things are very deep how can we know the reciprocation with Lord Visnu during this time?

 but Srila Rupa Goswami has given us some inside into the mentality of Jaya and Vijaya in all these 3 births

 you want me to give you these quotes from Srila Rupa Goswami from his

Laghu Bhagavatamrta?

Bhaktin Raisa:

hw secretly was Caitanya Mahaprabhu predicted in the Vedas?

yes pease

i benefit from this mercy

even more today on ekadasi day

Payonidhi das:

so many things are there about Lrod Caitanya but His apperance is a great confidential secret

well I am glad to share this mercy with you

Bhaktin Raisa:

his name is not spelled out right as the Supreme Lord

?

Payonidhi das:

both the speaker and the listener benefits

yes mostly hidden because this is so confidential

Bhaktin Raisa:

but how hidden?

in what way?

because even hindus i believe dont recognize Him as Bhagavata

Payonidhi das:

"Towards the end of the period between four-thousand to five thousand years in Kali-yuga, I will descend on the earth as Gauranga, a golden-complexioned saintly brahmana in a place by the Ganges' shore and later become the crest-jewel of all sannyasis, exhibiting all My transcendental qualities including supreme renunciation and complete detachment from material desires...

Bhaktin Raisa:

or even acknowledge Him in any way..

Payonidhi das:

this is from Artharva veda

yes so confidential even most vaisnavas in other sampradayas have no idea who Lord Gauranga is

Bhaktin Raisa:

yes Channa avatar

hidden incarnation

i see..

Payonidhi das

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/caitanya.htm

Bhaktin raisa:

so they dont accept that this Nimao of Nadia is the Channa avatara?

Payonidhi das:

this has some of the unlimeted quotes from sastra about Lord Caitany

how can they know unless they hear from the devotees of Lord Caitanya?

Bhaktin Raisa:

well isnt it on the atharva veda?

do hey not accept this?

Payonidhi das:

Lord Caitanya came to bestow Lord for Krsna, so He is happy if everyone worships Krsna

but Krsna das Kaviraja has stated that those who worship Krsna without Gauranga are demons and those who worship Gauranga without Krsna are also demons

in Vrindavan some do not accept Caitanya Upanisad

they believe Bhaktivinoda Thakura made this up this is their foolishness and ignorance

it is also part of Artharva veda

His Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya ,parikrama and pramana khandas are the real sastric evidence

from Laghubhagavatamrita by Srila Rupa Goswami:

In the Vishnu-dharmottara Purana it is said that Lord Ramacandra, Laksmana, and the others are incarnations of the forms of the Lord that begin with Lord Vasudeva.  In the Padma Purana, however, it is said that Lord Ramacandra is Lord Narayana and Laksmana and the others are Ananta Sesa, and the Lord's cakra and conch respectively.  In the smrti-sastra it is said that Lord Ramacandra resides in Madhya-desa in the city of Ayodhya-pura.  It is also said that He resides in Maha-Vaikunthaloka.

37      Lord Krishna is described by Bilvamangala Thakura:

          "There may be many all-auspicious incarnations of the Personality of Godhead, but who other than Lord Shri Krishna can bestow love of God upon the surrendered souls?"*

38-9    Devaki's son Krishna, who is an unprecedented ocean of the nectar of sweetness and opulence, has been served and worshipped from time immemorial.  In the Puranas and other scriptures it is said that He resides in four abodes: Vraja, Mathura, Dvaraka, and Gokula.

40      Here someone may object: "But it is clearly said that Lord Nrsimha and Lord Ramacandra are equal to Lord Krishna."  The answer to this objection is seen in the Vishnu Purana:

41-2    Maitreya's question in the Fourth Canto of Vishnu Purana:

          "As Hiranyakasipu and Ravana (this demon) enjoyed sensual pleasures unavailable for even the great demigods, and then was personally killed by Lord Vishnu Himself.  Why did (this demon) not attain sayujya-mukti then?  Only as Sisupala did he attain sayujya-mukti, the liberation of merging into eternal Lord Hari?"

43      Shri Parasara's answer:

          "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who maintains, creates, and destroys the entire cosmic manifestation, manifested the unprecedented form of Lord Nrsimha in order to kill Hiranyakasipu, the king of the demons.  The thought that Lord Nrsimha was actually the Supreme Lord Vishnu was not manifest in Hiranyakasipu's mind.  Because Hiranyakasipu was overwhelmed by the mode of passion, at the time of his death he was not able to meditate on the transcendental Personality who was killing him.  For these reasons Hiranyakasipu did not attain liberation, but instead took birth as the demon Ravana, whose sense gratification was greater than all the pleasures in the three worlds.

44-5    "For these reasons Hiranyakasipu was not able to fix his mind in meditation on the supremely opulent and independent Personality of Godhead, who has neither beginning nor end."

          "When Hiranyakasipu was born again as the demon Ravana, he became a slave to lust.  His mind was completely attached to Sita-devi, and he was therefore not able to fix his mind in meditation on the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form as Ramacandra, the son of Dasaratha.  As Ravana was being killed by Ramacandra, the demon thought Rama to be an ordinary human being, and for this reason Ravana did not attain liberation because of being killed by the Lord, but in his next birth as Sisupala, merely attained seemingly imperishable opulence and power, which was celebrated throughout the entire earth.

46      "In this birth as Sisupala he was able to completely hate the Supreme Lord Krishna.  He constantly criticised Lord Krishna with words, and in this way constantly called out the Lord's holy names.  With great animosity he constantly meditated on Krishna's form, decorated with splendid yellow garments, golden bracelets, and a glittering crown adorned with a peacock feather.  He meditated on Krishna's eyes handsome as blossoming lotus petals, and Krishna's four broad arms, holding the conch, cakra, club and lotus.  While walking, eating, bathing, sitting, sleeping, and performing all other activities, Sisupala remembered Krishna with hatred.  His mind never deviated from Krishna for even a moment.

47      "Determined to die at Krishna's hand, Sisupala repeatedly insulted the Lord, and when Lord Krishna finally dispatched the Sudarsana cakra to kill him, Sisupala could understand that the glittering effulgence of the cakra was actually the imperishable Supreme Brahman.

48-9    "In this way, when Sisupala was killed by the Lord's Sudarsana cakra, all his sins were burned away, and he attained sayujya-mukti, entering the Lord's own transcendental form.

          "O Maitreya, I have thus explained the entire situation to you.  He is certainly the Supreme Personality of Godhead.  (If) when He is spoken of and remembered in a spirit of hatred, He gives a result difficult for the demigods, demons and all others to attain, then what kind of result does He give to they who love Him and serve Him with devotion?"

50-1    In this passage Parasara did not mention the Lord's two associates that took birth three times in the world.  These two associates are not thought to take birth in every kalpa for then they would fall down in every kalpa.  That is not an acceptable idea.

52-55  Parasara Muni's prose answer to Maitreya is now summarised in verse:

          Hiranyakasipu could not understand that the wonderful form of Lord Nrsimha displayed by Lord Hari was actually Lord Vishnu.  Hiranyakasipu was pious.  He was sure that Lord Nrsimha was very extraordinary, but because he was overcome with passion he could not fix his mind on Him.  Because he was personally killed by the Lord, Hiranyakasipu attained extraordinary and rarely achieved sense-gratification and opulence in his next birth as Ravana.

56-7    Because he could not recognise Lord Nrsimha as Lord Vishnu, and because he was not filled with hatred for Him, Hiranyakasipu was not fixed in meditation on the Lord.  If without meditation on the Lord he had hated Him, he would have gone to hell as King Vena had gone.  Because he was killed by the Lord's own hand, he attained great good fortune.  Thinking them, (Parasara) refers to the Lord's transcendental virtues here by speaking the word "eva" (certainly).

58-9    Because he was not absorbed in meditation on the Lord and because his sins were not yet destroyed, he could not see the Lord's pure nature.  Even though the Lord was manifest before him, he could not merge into the form of His Supreme Brahma.  In his birth as Ravana, he became a slave to lust.  At the time of his death He thought Lord Rama a mere human being.

60-2    Then he took birth as Sisupala, and again he attained great opulence.  Because in that birth he chanted all the names of the goddess of fortune's husband, Lord Narayana, he could understand that Lord Vishnu had killed him twice.  For this reason, out of great hatred he always chanted the Lord's names and criticised Him in many ways.

63-4    Gazing at the Lord's form, he became convinced that this was Lord Vishnu.  Always and everywhere he remembered the Lord as he always chanted His names.  In this way the great flood of sins born from his hatred of the Lord became burned up.  When the Lord threw His cakra at the end, its splendour destroyed his demonic nature and purified his vision.  Then he saw that the splendid Supreme Brahman had a humanlike form.  Then the cakra destroyed his demon's body and he merged into the Supreme Brahman.

65      Considering his explanation that (this demon) attained liberation from the pastimes of child (Krishna), but when he was in the form of Kalanemi or other forms did not attain liberation from the Lord's activities in other circumstances, (Parasara) said (Text 49), "ayam hi bhagavan" (Krishna is certainly the Supreme Personality of Godhead).

66-7    In this way it is established that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He at once attracts the hearts of both they who love Him and they who hate Him.  Therefore the glorification of Him in Text 49 is not surprising.  Considering this prose explanation, (it is said) how much greater (than the destination of they who hate the Lord is than the destination attained by they who) serve Him with love?