seeing through the eyes of scriptures

Bhagavad Gita 2.4 , and kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya

Text 4

arjuna uvaca katham bhismam aham sankhye dronam ca madhusudana isubhih pratiyotsyami pujarhav ari-sudana

Translation

Arjuna said: O killer of enemies, O killer of Madhu, how can I counterattack with arrows in battle men like Bhishma and Drona, who are worthy of my worship?

Commentary by Srila Prabhupada

Respectable superiors like Bhishma the grandfather and Dronacarya the teacher are always worshipable. Even if they attack, they should not be counterattacked. It is general etiquette that superiors are not to be offered even a verbal fight. Even if they are sometimes harsh in behavior, they should not be harshly treated. Then, how is it possible for Arjuna to counterattack them? Would Krishna ever attack His own grandfather, Ugrasena, or His teacher, Sandipani Muni? These were some of the arguments offered by Arjuna to Krishna.

Commentary by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur

"According to scriptures of dharma, not respecting those worthy of worship is a cause of bondage: pratibadhnati hi sreyah pujya-puja-vyatikramah. Therefore I withdraw from fighting. How can I kill them?" The form prati yotsyami (parasmaipada) is used instead of the form prati yotsye (atmanepada, for oneself).

"But those two elders are fighting. Are you not able to fight against them?"

"No I cannot do so, for they are worthy of worship (pujarhau): I should offer flowers to their feet in devotion rather than sharp arrows in anger. O friend Krishna! Even you injure only the enemies in battle, and not your own guru Sandipani Muni or your friends the Yadus, O Madhusudana, killer of Madhu!"

"But I am a descendent of Madhu, therefore called Madhava, in the ancient lineage of the Yadu dynasty. How could I have killed Madhu?"

"No, 1 do not mean that Madhu. I am speaking about the demon named Madhu who was your enemy (ari sudana)."

Rudra Vaisnava Sampradaya:

Visnuswami

Sridhara Swami's Commentary

I am not withdrawing from battle out of cowardice but because it is improper to attack my superiors. This is what Arjuna meant by asking the Supreme Lord Krishna: How shall I fight against Bhishma and Drona? When it is wrong to even speak of fighting against them, how can I then even consider actually fighting them. This is the factual meaning of these words expressed by Arjuna.

Brahma Vaisnava Sampradaya:

Madhvacarya

There is no commentary for this verse.

Sri Vaisnava Sampradaya:

Ramanuja

There is no commentary for this verse.

Kumara Vaisnava Sampradaya:

Nimbaditya

Kesava Kasmiri's Commentary

Although Lord Krishna's instructions are perfectly correct still it might be submitted that one coming from noble lineage should only fight a battle which is not antagonistic to ones family traditions regarding righteousness and not fight a battle which would be instrumental in destroying these family traditions. Arjuna is asking how can he engage in battle with his superior Bhishma and his preceptor Drona. When even to argue against them is improper then what to think against attacking them with deadly arrows in earnest. Why? Because preceptors and superiors are always to be respected. Duryodhana by placing Bhishma and Drona directly in the forefront caused the ever righteous Pandavas discomfort at the thought of having to fight against them as it was opposed to the time honored noble traditions of their family lineage. So what Arjuna in fact is stating is why should they engage themselves in this battle being aware of the great sinfulness declared in the Vedic scriptures of disregarding superiors and showing aggression against the preceptor which results in the perpetrator becoming a ghostly demon known as a brahma-raksasa.

"When To Reject Guru"

73/08/05 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.4-5

Pradyumna (leads chanting, etc.):

arjuna uvaca katham bhismam aham sankhye dronam ca madhusudana isubhih pratiyotsyami pujarhav ari-sudana [Bg. 2.4]

gurun ahatva hi mahanubhavan sreyo bhoktum bhaiksyam apiha loke hatvartha-kamams tu gurun ihaiva bhunjiya bhogan rudhira-pradigdhan [Bg. 2.5]

Translation: "Arjuna said: O killer of Madhu (Krsna), how can I counterattack with arrows in battle men like Bhisma and Drona, who are worthy of my worship? It is better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though they are avaricious, they are nonetheless superiors. If they are killed, our spoils will be tainted with blood."

Prabhupada: So the first problem was for Arjuna how to kill the kinsmen, family men. Now, when he was chastised by Krsna as a friend that "Why you are so weak? Don't be weak. This is sentiment. This kind of compassion is sentiment. Uttistha. You better get up and fight." If I do not want to do something, I can offer so many pleas. You see. So next he is presenting gurun: "All right, Krsna, you are talking about my kinsmen. I accept that it is my weakness. But how do You advise me to kill my guru? Dronacarya is my guru. And Bhismadeva is also my guru. So do you want me to kill my guru? Gurun hi hatva. And not only ordinary guru. This is not that they are ordinary men. Mahanubhavan. Bhisma is a great devotee, and similarly, Dronacarya also, a great personality. Mahanubhavan. So katham bhismam aham sankhye dronam ca madhusudana. "They are two great personalities. They are not only my gurus, but they are great personalities." And Krsna is addressed "Madhusudana." Madhusudana means... Madhu was Krsna's enemy, a demon. So He killed. So "You are Madhusudana, You are killer of Your enemies. Can You give me any evidence that You have killed Your guru? So why You are asking me?" This is the purport. Isubhih pratiyotsyami pujarhav ari-sudana. Again Ari-sudana. Ari means enemy. Madhusudana, particularly "the killer of the Madhu demon." And next is Arisudana. Ari means enemy. So Krsna has killed so many demons, ari, who came to fight with Him as enemy. Therefore His name is Arisudana.

So Krsna has got enemies also, what to speak of ourself. This material world is so made, that you must have some enemies. Matsarata. Matsarata means enviousness, jealousy. This material world is like that. So there are jealous enemies of God also. They are called demons. Ordinary jealousy or enemy, that is natural. But even to God. Just like yesterday night, evening, somebody came to see me. He was arguing that "Why Krsna should be accepted as God?" That was his argument. So Krsna has enemies. Therefore Krsna... Not only He, but everyone who is in the material world is enemy of Krsna. Everyone. Because they want to be competitor of Krsna. Krsna says that bhoktaram: "I am the supreme enjoyer." Sarva-loka-mahesvaram: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the Supreme proprietor." And the Vedas also confirm, isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. "Everything is the property of the Supreme Lord." Sarvam khalv idam brahma. These are Vedic injunctions. Yato va imani bhutani jayante: "From whom everything has come." Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. These are Vedic versions. But still, we, because we are enemies, "No, why Krsna shall be the proprietor? I am the proprietor. Why Krsna shall be God only. I have got another God. Here is another God."

So Krsna has enemies. Arisudana. And He has to kill them. Krsna has got two businesses: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. Miscreants... They are miscreants. The demons who challenge Krsna, who want to compete with Krsna, who want to share with the property of Krsna, they are all enemies of Krsna, and they should be killed. So killing business is all right here for the enemies, not ordinarily. Then the next question is, "All right, enemies, you can kill, admitted But how you advise me to kill my gurus? Gurun ahatva. But if for Krsna's sake, if there is need, you have to kill your guru also. That is the philosophy. For Krsna's sake. If Krsna wants, then you cannot... If Krsna wants that you should kill your guru, then you have to do it. That is Krsna consciousness. Of course, Krsna will not ask you to kill guru, but... Because guru and Krsna are the same. Guru-krsna-krpaya. We get Krsna consciousness through the mercy of guru and Krsna. So real guru is never to be killed, but the so-called guru has to be killed. The so-called, pseudo guru, false guru, he should be killed. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. While Prahlada Maharaja... He was standing. Here is, Nrsimhadeva is killing his father. Father is guru. Sarva-devamayo guruh. Similarly, father is also guru, at least, official guru. Materially he is guru. So how Prahlada Maharaja allowed Nrsimhadeva to kill his guru? He's father. Everyone knows that Hiranyakasipu is father. Would you like to see that your father is being killed by some person and you'll stand? You will not protest? Is that your duty? No, that is not your duty. When your father is attacked, you must protest. At least, if you are unable, you must fight. You first of all lay down your life: "How is that, my father is being killed in my front?" That is our duty. But Prahlada Maharaja did not protest. He could have requested -- he is devotee -- "My dear sir, Prabhu, my Lord, You can excuse my father." He didn't. But he knew that "My father is not being killed. It is the body of the father." Later on he begged for his father in a different way. First of all, when Nrsimhadeva was angry, He was killing the body, he knew that "The body is not my father. The soul is my father. So let the Lord satisfy Himself by killing the body of my father; then I shall save him."

So Prahlada Maharaja... Nrsimhadeva offered Prahlada Maharaja, "Now you can take any kind of benediction you like." So Prahlada Maharaja replied, "My Lord, we are materialists. I am born of a father absolutely materialist. So I am also, because I am born of a materialist father, I am also materialist. And You, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, You are offering to give me some benediction. I can take any kind of benediction from You. I know that. But what is the use of it? Why shall I ask You for any benediction? I have seen my father. Materially, he was so powerful that even the demigods, Indra, Candra, Varuna, they were threatened by his red eyes. And he gained over, control over the universe. He was so powerful. And riches, wealth, power, reputation, everything complete, but You have finished it in one second. So why You are offering me such benediction? What shall I do with them? If I take that benediction from You and I become puffed up and do everything wrong against You, then You can finish it within a second. So kindly do not offer me such benediction, such material opulence. Better give me benediction to be engaged in the service of Your servant. I want this benediction. Let me be benedicted by You that I may be engaged in the service of Your servant, not directly Your servant."

Then, after many prayers, after pacifying the Lord... He was very angry. Then when He was little pacified, he asked, "My dear Lord, I can ask You one, another benediction. that my father was very, very staunch enemy of You. That was the cause of his death. Now I ask You kindly excuse him and give him liberation." This is Vaisnava son. He did not ask anything for himself. And although he knew that his father was the greatest enemy, still, he is asking his benediction, "This poor fellow may be liberated." So Lord Nrsimhadeva guaranteed, said, "My dear Prahlada, not only your father, but your father's father, his father, up to fourteen generations, all are liberated. Because you are born in this family." So anyone who has become a Vaisnava, a devotee of the Lord, he is giving the greatest service to the family. Because in relationship with him, his father, mother, anyone, they will be liberated. Just like we have got experience, if a person dies in the fight immaturely, his family is taken care of by the government. Similarly, to become a devotee is the greatest qualification. He has got everything. Yatra yogesvaro harih yatra dhanur-dharah parthah. When there is Krsna and when there is devotee, all victory, all glories are there. That is guaranteed.

So gurun ahatva. A devotee of Krsna, if need be, if he's unqualified guru... Unqualified guru means who does not know how to guide the disciple. Guru's duty is to guide. So such kind of guru can be at least rejected. That is Jiva Gosvami's... Karya-karyam ajanatah. A guru who does not know what to do and what not to do, but by mistake, by mistakenly I have accepted somebody as guru, he can be rejected. By rejecting him, you can accept an actual bona fide guru. So guru is not killed, but he can be rejected. That is the injunction of the sastra. So Bhismadeva or Dronacarya, certainly they were gurus, but Krsna indirectly giving indication to Arjuna, that "Although they are in the position of guru, you can reject them." Karya-karyam ajanatah. "They do not know factually." This Bhismadeva, he materially considered his position. He knew everything from the beginning, that the Pandavas, they were parentless, fatherless children, and he raised them from the very beginning. Not only that, he was so much affectionate to the Pandavas that he was thinking, when they were sent to forest, banished, at that time Bhismadeva was crying, that "These five boys, they are so pure, so honest, and not only pure and honest, so powerful warriors, Arjuna and Bhima. And this Draupadi is practically directly the goddess of fortune. And they have got their friend, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. And they are suffering?" He cried. He was such affectionate. Therefore Arjuna is considering, "How can I kill Bhisma?" But duty is so strong. Krsna is advising, "Yes, he must be killed because he has gone to the other side. He has forgotten his duty. He should have joined you. Therefore he is no more in the position of guru. You must kill him. He has wrongly joined the other party. Therefore there is no harm, killing him. Similarly Dronacarya. Similarly Dronacarya. I know they are great personalities, they have got great affection. But only on material consideration they have gone there." What is that material consideration? Bhisma thought that "I am maintained by the money of Duryodhana. Duryodhana is maintaining me. Now he is in danger. If I go to the other side, then I should be ungrateful. He has maintained me so long. And if I, in the time of danger, when there is fighting, if I go to the other side, that will be..." He thought like this. He did not think that "Duryodhana may be maintaining, but he has usurped the property of the Pandavas." But it is his greatness. He knew that Arjuna will never be killed because Krsna is there. "So from material point of view, I must be grateful to Duryodhana." The same position was for Dronacarya. They were maintained.

Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said that visayira anna khaile malina haya mana. Such great personalities became darkened because they took money from them, anna. If I am provided by somebody who is too much materialist, then that will affect me. I will become also materialist. I will also become materialist. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu has warned that "Those who are visayi, those who are not devotees, do not accept anything from them because it will make your mind unclean." So therefore a brahmana and a Vaisnava, they do not accept directly money. They accept bhiksa. Bhiksa. Just like here it is said bhaiksyam. Sreyo bhoktum bhaiksyam apiha loke. When you ask somebody... Still, bhiksa is also sometimes prohibited from a person who is too much materialist. But bhiksa is allowed for sannyasis, for brahmana. So therefore Arjuna is speaking that "Instead of killing such great gurus who are so great personalities, mahanubhavan..." So bhaiksyam. For a ksatriya... A brahmana, a sannyasi can beg, can beg alms, but not a ksatriya, not a vaisya. That is not allowed. So he was a ksatriya, Arjuna. So he says, "Better I shall take the profession of a brahmana and beg from door to door instead of enjoy the kingdom by killing my guru." That was his proposal. So on the whole, Arjuna is illusioned -- illusioned in the sense that he is forgetting his duty. He is a ksatriya, his duty is to fight; never mind the opposite party, even he is son, a ksatriya will not hesitate to kill his son even if he is inimical. Similarly, the son, if the father is inimical, he would not hesitate to kill his father. This is the stringent duty of the ksatriyas, no consideration. A ksatriya cannot consider like that. Therefore Krsna said, klaibyam: "You don't be coward. Why you are becoming coward?" These topics are going on. Later on, Krsna will give him real spiritual instruction. This is... Ordinary talks are going on between the friend and the friend.

That's all right. Thank you. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.4-5 -- London, August 5, 1973

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Comments: Haribhakti Vilasa and Krsna Bhajanamrta has stated when a Guru should be rejected:

In Krsna Bhajanamrta ,Shrila Narahari Sarakara Thakura has stated:

Verse 59 If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaishnava regulative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, but one is not to give him up.

Verse 60 One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or challenging a spiritual master.

"For it has been prescribed that one must appropriately discipline even a spiritual master who is: *bewildered about what he should or shouldn't do; *who is inexperienced or ignorant: *who has deviated from the Krishna conscious path; *or if he is bewildered by false pride." Verse 61 This statement of the revealed scriptures is applicable at all times and under all circumstances.

Verse 62 The natural behavior of the Vaishnava devotees is to take complete refuge of Lord Shri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, accepting Him as their principal and real shelter. The very life of the Vaishnava devotees of the Lord is singing the glories or Lord Shri Krishna, describing and expanding the fame of Lord Shri Krishna, and discussing the nectar of His transcendental pastimes.

Verse 63 The authorized course of action is to continue, as before, with one's prescribed devotional service. One may take guidance through or instructions from the Vaishnavas, as all Vaishnavas are considered guru or "spiritual master," or one may use one's own intelligence, duly considering the relevant instructions from sadhu, sastra and guru. In all cases one should continue in one's devotional service.

Verse 64 However, if the spiritual master: *acts envious towards 'isvarebrantah', that which is connected with the Supreme; *is bewildered regarding the Supreme Personality of Godhead; *is averse to expanding the fame of Lord Krishna; *personally refuses to accept hearing or chanting about the glorious pastimes of Lord Shri Krishna; *has become totally bewildered, listening to the false praise of ignorant persons and day by day is more materially contaminated and fallen ___then the spiritual master must be renounced.

Verse 65 Under those circumstances one should not doubt, "How can I give up my spiritual master?" With a strong desire for achieving spontaneous devotional service and attaining the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a devotee accepts the shelter of a spiritual master, if that spiritual master takes on "asuric" qualities or a demoniac mentality then it is one's duty to reject such a demon "asura" guru and in his place accept a Krishna conscious spiritual master and worship him.

Verse 66 By taking shelter of the strength of the Krishna conscious spiritual master's devotional service the ill effects or contamination of the demoniac previous spiritual master is counteracted and destroyed.

In Hari Bhakti Vilasa it is stated also that when a Guru is using his disciples for money and or sex he should also be rejected...

Bali Maharaja rejected his Guru Sukracarya due to his greed for wealth, Arjuna even had to go a step further and kill his superiors ,Bhisma and Dronacarya...

Sannaysis are not supposed to own much personal wealth, and in the Srimad Bhagavatam it is stated that in Kali yuga many will misuse this asrama for wealth,the public will reject such persons as unworthy members of this asrama.

SB 12.3.33: The brahmacārīs will fail to execute their vows and become generally unclean, the householders will become beggars, the vānaprasthas will live in the villages, and the sannyāsīs will become greedy for wealth.

The Srimad Bhagavatam also predicts:

SB 12.2.1: Śukadeva Gosvāmī said: Then, O King, religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, mercy, duration of life, physical strength and memory will all diminish day by day because of the powerful influence of the age of Kali.

SB 12.2.2: In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power.

SB 12.2.3: Men and women will live together merely because of superficial attraction, and success in business will depend on deceit. Womanliness and manliness will be judged according to one's expertise in sex, and a man will be known as a brāhmaṇa just by his wearing a thread.

SB 12.2.4: A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

SB 12.2.5: A person will be judged unholy if he does not have money, and hypocrisy will be accepted as virtue. Marriage will be arranged simply by verbal agreement, and a person will think he is fit to appear in public if he has merely taken a bath.

SB 12.2.6: A sacred place will be taken to consist of no more than a reservoir of water located at a distance, and beauty will be thought to depend on one's hairstyle. Filling the belly will become the goal of life, and one who is audacious will be accepted as truthful. He who can maintain a family will be regarded as an expert man, and the principles of religion will be observed only for the sake of reputation.

Srimad Bhagavatam also states:

SB 12.3.25: In the Kali age people tend to be greedy, ill-behaved and merciless, and they fight one another without good reason. Unfortunate and obsessed with material desires, the people of Kali-yuga are almost all śūdras and barbarians.

SB 12.3.26: The material modes — goodness, passion and ignorance — whose permutations are observed within a person's mind, are set into motion by the power of time.

SB 12.3.27: When the mind, intelligence and senses are solidly fixed in the mode of goodness, that time should be understood as Satya-yuga, the age of truth. People then take pleasure in knowledge and austerity.

SB 12.3.28: O most intelligent one, when the conditioned souls are devoted to their duties but have ulterior motives and seek personal prestige, you should understand such a situation to be the age of Tretā, in which the functions of passion are prominent.

SB 12.3.29: When greed, dissatisfaction, false pride, hypocrisy and envy become prominent, along with attraction for selfish activities, such a time is the age of Dvāpara, dominated by the mixed modes of passion and ignorance.

SB 12.3.30: When there is a predominance of cheating, lying, sloth, sleepiness, violence, depression, lamentation, bewilderment, fear and poverty, that age is Kali, the age of the mode of ignorance.

SB 12.3.31: Because of the bad qualities of the age of Kali, human beings will become shortsighted, unfortunate, gluttonous, lustful and poverty-stricken. The women, becoming unchaste, will freely wander from one man to the next.

SB 12.3.32: Cities will be dominated by thieves, the Vedas will be contaminated by speculative interpretations of atheists, political leaders will virtually consume the citizens, and the so-called priests and intellectuals will be devotees of their bellies and genitals.

SB 12.3.34: Women will become much smaller in size, and they will eat too much, have more children than they can properly take care of, and lose all shyness. They will always speak harshly and will exhibit qualities of thievery, deceit and unrestrained audacity.

SB 12.3.35: Businessmen will engage in petty commerce and earn their money by cheating. Even when there is no emergency, people will consider any degraded occupation quite acceptable.

SB 12.3.36: Servants will abandon a master who has lost his wealth, even if that master is a saintly person of exemplary character. Masters will abandon an incapacitated servant, even if that servant has been in the family for generations. Cows will be abandoned or killed when they stop giving milk.

SB 12.3.37: In Kali-yuga men will be wretched and controlled by women. They will reject their fathers, brothers, other relatives and friends and will instead associate with the sisters and brothers of their wives. Thus their conception of friendship will be based exclusively on sexual ties.

The only solution is the contant chanting of Hare Krishna:

SB 12.13.23: I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Lord, Hari, the congregational chanting of whose holy names destroys all sinful reactions, and the offering of obeisances unto whom relieves all material suffering.

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Bhagavad Gita 2.4 , and kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya

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