response to Praghosa das about women being Guru issue

[Paramananda das]

As moderator of this site I wish to keep an open mind on this discussion and in particular whatever conclusion is reached, if any. Naturally I have my own thoughts but I want to remain open to changing them as this discussion develops.

One quote that is often used to argue against women ever giving diksa is:

According to sastric injunctions, there is no difference between siksa-guru and diksa-guru,and generally the siksa-guru later on becomes the diksa-guru. Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not become Dhruva Maharaja’s diksa-guru.”  (Bhag. 4.12.32 purport)

Even with the above reference, the door is left open as far as the words ’specifically his mother’

In addition we have the following reference:

asvamedham gavalambham sannyasam pala-paitrkam devarena sutotpattim kalau panca vivarjayet

“In this age of Kali, five acts are forbidden: the offering of a horse in sacrifice, the offering of a cow in sacrifice, the acceptance of the order of sannyasa, the offering of oblations of flesh to the forefathers, and a man’s begetting children in his brother’s wife.” (Cc. Adi 17.164)

Now we know that both SBSST, Srila Prabhupada and of course the GBC do not follow this sastric injunction. It is understood that over and above sastra we follow the order of the acarya first and foremost. Our acarya, Srila Prabhupada, waived this particular injunction in deference to the preaching mission.

One question that needs to be answered is - should we also waive the rigid objection to women gurus in deference to the preaching mission? Our acarya Srila Prabhupada seems to indicate such a course of action with many references, in particular this one:

“I want that all of my spiritual sons and DAUGHTERS will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to INITIATE disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to INITIATE and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program” – Letter to Hamsaduta on Jan 3, 1969

Capitals mine for emphasis

Ys Praghosa dasa

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=11051#more-11051

 

dear Praghosa Prabhu

Please accept my humble obaisences

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

This letter was written in 1969 and never implemented in ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada also established the Document of Management that is actually a legal document in 1970.

In the early days of ISKCON women would even sometimes wear saffron that is never done in Gaudiya line but Prabhupada allowed it for some time, in hope of encouraging renunciation (that is my understanding of this).But he never gave sannyasa to a woman, never made any women a diksa Guru ,or a GBC or a TP.If women are made Gurus the GBC also have to allow the Document  of management, that will limit the power of one and all TP's and GBC's .We can not pick and choose what we like.But since the Document of management was never implemented the GBC does not approve of it.Nor did Srila Prabhupada ever state after 1969 women should be Gurus,He did not make one woman Guru when he left in 1977 or expressed they should be.In general his books are considered higher authority than his letters.Though this may be also questionable by some  .

The fact is he never stated after 1969 women should be diksa Gurus is clear.Siksa yes but not diksa. it is not stri dharma:

Suniti, however, being a WOMAN , and specifically his MOTHER  could not become Dhruva Maharaja’s diksa-guru.” (Bhag. 4.12.32 purport)

Capitals mine for emphasis

your servant

Paramananda das

[Paramananda das]

Paramananda Das this is a picture of a prostitute that tried to seduce Hari das Thakura, she became a devotee when hearing his chanting and he ordered her so sell all her worldly belongings for Krsnas seva (service) and chant by the tulsi tree,where she chanted like her exalted Gurudeva ..128 rounds daily ,but she never dared try to become a diksa Guru

15 minutes ago · Like

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  Paramananda Das THOSE WOMEN THAT WANTS TO BE DIKSA GURUS DESPITE PRABHUPADAS INSTRUCTION: Suniti, however, being a WOMAN , and specifically his MOTHER  could not become Dhruva Maharaja’s diksa-guru.” (Bhag. 4.12.32 purport) ARE PROSTITUTES WITH PERSONAL AMBITION

  11 minutes ago · Like
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  Paramananda Das ANY WOMAN THAT BECOME A TP AND GBC IS A PROSTITUE AS IT IS AGAINST PRABHUPADAS INSTRUCIONES AND DESIRES

  7 minutes ago · Like
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  Paramananda Das WATCH OUT FOR THE ISKCON PROSTITUES

  6 minutes ago · Like
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  Paramananda Das mother Malati was made a GBC she left ISKCOn for many years and did drugs and got HIV,and did satanic worship and burned Prabhupadas books ,then she returned to ISKCON and made a GBC ...

  5 minutes ago · Like
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  Paramananda Das many women in ISKCON are trained to be prostitutes and marry again and again

  4 minutes ago · Like
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  Paramananda Das and so does many of the men ..avoid such bad persons

  4 minutes ago · Like
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  Paramananda Das http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

  

  Prostitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  en.wikipedia.org
  

  Prostitution is the business or practice of providing sexual services to another...

  person in return for payment. The person who receives payment for sexual services is called a prostitute and the person who receives such services is known by a multitude of terms, including "john". Prostitution is one ...

  See More

  2 minutes ago · Like · Remove Preview
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  Paramananda Das so in the sense of selling out ones soul: Other meanings
  
  The word "prostitution" can also be used metaphorically to mean debasing oneself or working towards an unworthy cause or "selling out".[9] In this sense, "prostituting oneself" or "whoring oneself" the services or acts performed are typically not sexual. For instance, in the book, The Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caulfield says of his brother ("D.B."): "Now he's out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute. If there's one thing I hate, it's the movies. Don't even mention them to me." D.B. is not literally a prostitute; Holden feels that his job writing B-movie screenplays is morally debasing. Sex work researcher and writer Gail Pheterson says that this additional definition exists because "the term "prostitute" gradually took on a Christian moralist tradition, as being synonymous with debasement of oneself or of others for the purpose of ill-gotten gains".[10]

  about a minute ago · Like

[Paramananda das]

dear Praghosa Prabhu

Please accept my humble obaisences

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

What is your point that you are pushing women to be Gurus? What is your agenda?

Pranada also promoted women as being Gurus, shortly after that she had illicit sex with your "Guru".You have not rejected him though he fell down?

Nor has he even given up wearing saffron. Now we have to listen to your promoting women

as diksa Gurus? What is next Pranada for being a diksa Guru?

I urge you to read Niti sastra of Chanakya Pandit and Manusmirti and other Dharma sastras , women can not be diksa Gurus.ISCKON will loss its prestige and seen as a mayavadi instituion.But I guess since you allow  a mayavadi to sing in front of Radha Gokulananda (or the management team at Bhaktivedanta manor) nothing is  sacred?

Making women diksa Gurus will be ISKCON downfall totally mark my words and see the future.

your servant

Paramananda das

[Paramananda das]

Dear Paramanada prabhu,

My obeisances. Srila Prabhupada ki jai!

I am NOT promoting women gurus. I am simply discussing the matter from all
angles of vision, something Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to do.

You have no idea what my relationship is or isn't with the devotee whom I
took diksa from. You have no idea at all, yet you speculate...

As for reading dharma sastras, Srila Prabhupada changed so much that would
not be in accordance with those sastras. Women living in temples, sannyasis
conducting marraiges, reducing the daily quota of japa to 16 etc., etc.

Your servant, Praghosa dasa

[Paramananda das]

dear Praghosa Prabhu

Dandavat pranams

Jaya Sri Guru Gauranga.Jaya Srila Prabhupada

I did not mean to sound demeaning about Sastsvarupa

Krsna Bhajanamrta states:

Verse 59

If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaisnava regulatative  principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for  his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra  and guru references, but one is not to give him up.

Verse 60

One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or  challenging a spiritual master. "For it has been prescribed that one must  appropriately discipline even a spiritual master who is: *bewildered about  what he should or shouldn't do; *who is inexperienced or ignorant: *who has  deviated from the Krsna conscious path; *or if he is bewildered by false pride."

yo vyakti nyaya rahitam anyayena srnoti yah tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

["One who assumes the dress and position of an acarya, who speaks against the conclusions of Srimad-Bhagavatam and other scriptures, or performs kirtana opposed to the proper glorification of Sri Krsna, certainly goes to hell for countless lifetimes along with his disciples and whoever else hears such non-devotional talks and kirtanas." (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101)]

In the Bhakti sandarbha we find:

The Injunction to Abandon a Bogus Guru 1.49

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

A guru addicted to sensual pleasure and polluted by vice, who is ignorant and has no power to discriminate between right and wrong, or who is not on the path of suddha-bhakti must be abandoned. (Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva, 179.25)

1.50

snehad va lobhato vapi yo grhniyad diksayatasmin gurau sa-sisye tat devata sapa apatet

If a guru, disregarding the standard for giving diksa, gives the mantra to his disciple out of greed or mundane affection, he is cursed by the gods along with that disciple. (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.7)

1.52

A guru who is envious of pure devotees, who blasphemes them, or behaves maliciously towards them should certainly be abandoned, remembering the verse "guror api avaliptasya" (See 1.49). Such an envious guru lacks the mood and character of a Vaisnava. The sastras enjoin that one should not accept initiation from a non-devotee (avaisnavopadistena... See 1.54). Knowing these injunctions of the scriptures, a sincere devotee abandons a false guru who is envious of devotees. After leaving one who lacks the true qualities of a guru, if a devotee is without a spiritual guide, his only hope is to seek out a mahabhagavata vaisnava and serve him. By constantly rendering service to such a pure devotee, one will certainly attain the highest goal of life. (Bhakti-sandarbha, Annucheda 238)

The strict standard is to reject a diksa Guru that engages in illicit sex and is overly attached to wealth,this is also   explained in the Hari Bhakti Vilasa, 1st Vilasa, there is it never mentioned woman can be a Guru.Here is a link to the first vilasa of Haribhakti Vilasa http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Sanatana_Goswami/H...

vishnu-smritau

paricarya-yaso-labha-

lipsuh shishyad guru na  hi

kripa-sindhuh  su-sampurnah

sarva-sattvopakarakah

vishnu-smritau—in the Vishnu-smriti;  paricarya—worship; yasah—fame; labha—attainment; lipsuh—desirign; shishyat—from  his disciple; guru—a spiritual master; na—not; hi—indeed; kripa-sindhuh—an ocean  of mercy; su-sampurnah—very perfect; sarva-sattvopakarakah—doing good to  everyone.

In the Vishnu-smriti it is  said:

"A person who is greedy to get worship,  praise, and money from his disciple is not a true spiritual master. A true  spiritual master is an ocean of mercy, perfect, a person who does good to  everyone, .

dushöa-lakshana-sampanno

yadyapi svayam  ishvarah

bahu-pratigrahasakta

acaryah  shri-kshayavahah

dushöa-lakshana-sampannah—filled with  faults; yadyapi—although; svayam—personally; ishvarah—able; bahu—many;  pratigraha—donations; asaktah—attached; acaryah—a spiritual master; shri—of good  fortune; kshaya—the destruction; avahah—bringing.

. . . has a host of faults, and, although  financially well situated is greedy for more and bigger donations, is the kind  of spiritual master that destroys the good fortune of his  disciples."

You mentioned the amount of chanting ,thoug this is not popular in ISKCON ,  I am  of the opinion that anyone who does not at least chants 64 rounds daily with love and devotion and attention is not fit to be a Guru because Srila Bhaktisiddhantra Prabhupada said such a person is pattita..fallen.The fallen can never be a Guru.

121) prabhu bale,-"jana, 'lakshesvara' bali kare? prati-dina laksha-nama ye grahana kare"
"Do you know who is a laksesvara? He is someone who chants one laksa or 100,000 holy names (64 rounds of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra) everyday."
Purport by Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:
shri gaurasundera balibena-"jini pratidina laksha-nama grahana karibena, tanharai grihe bhagavan sevita hana.
Shri Gaurasundera spoke as follows-"The Supreme Personality of Godhead accepts service only in the home of those who chant one hundred thousand names daily.
"bhagavan tanharai nikate bhoga-dravyadi grahana karena.
"The Lord accepts bhoga (foodstuffs) and other ingredients only from such personalities.
"jini laksha-nama grahana karena na, tahara nikate haite bhagavan naivedya svikara-dvara seva-saubhagya pradana karena na.
"Those who don't chant 100,000 names (64 rounds) daily, are never awarded the great fortune of rendering service to the Lord by offering Him naivedya (bhoga). This is because the Lord never accepts (svikara) their offerings.
Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:
"bhagavad-bhakta matrei pratyaha laksha-nama grahana karibena natuva vividha visaye asakta haiya bhagavad-seva karite asamartha haibena."
The Lord continued-"Those who consider themselves devotees of the Lord must compulsorily chant 100,000 names of Krishna everyday otherwise they will gradually but surely become attached to varieties of sense-objects and thus become incapable to rendering any kind of service to the Lord."
Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:
tajjanyai shri chaitanyadevera ashrita sakalai nyuna kalpe laksha-nama grahana kariya thakena. natuva gaurasunderera udeshya pradatta naivedya tini grahana karibena na.
(Shrila Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada continues) "Therefore all the devotees who have taken shelter of Lord Chaitanyadeva perform the chanting of a minimum of 100,000 names of Krishna daily as their first and primary duty. Because they know that if they don't do so then Lord Gaurasundera will never accept the very bhoga (naivedya) which they cook for Him daily.

In Caitanya Bhagavad we find :
(122) "se janera nama ami bali 'lakshesvara' tatha bhiksha amara, na yai anya ghara."
"Lord Gauranga continued-I call such a person a laksheshvara. I only accept meals in such a person's house. I never go anywhere else."
Purport by Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:
shri chaitanya bhaktagana abhaktera sahita sambhashana karena na. jini bhaktivyatita karma, jnana o anyabhilashara kathaya pradatta tahara sahita bandhutva karibe na.
"The devotees of Lord Shri Chaitanya never talk with such non-devotees. They never do friendship with those who are engaged in the cultivation of karma, jnana or other desires which are devoid of bhakti.

pratyah laksha-nama grahana na karile patita vyaktiganera visaya-bhoga pravritti vriddhi paya, takhana ara tahara shri gaurasunderarera seva karite pare na.
"Those who don't accept this vow of chanting 100,000 names daily, fall down even more although they were fallen in the first place (due to the contamination of Kali-yuga). Thus their propensity for enjoying the senses and sense-objects continually and steadily increases and ultimately they are not able to render any kind of service even to the most merciful Lord Gaurasundera.
lakshesvara vyatita gaura-bhaktira adarsa gaudiyajana kehai svikara karena na.
"This is the precise reason why the real Gaudiya-bhaktas do not accept any other ideal (adarsa) in Gaura-bhakti or Krishna-bhakti except the process of chanting 100,000 names of the maha-mantra daily.
Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:
adhapatita va adhapete gana eka-matra bhajana-sabda-vacya shri-nama-bhajane vimukhata-vasata laksha-nama grahana karibara parivarte anya bhajanera chalana korena, taddvara tahadera kona mangala haya na.
"Those spiritual aspirants who are already fallen or will fall down from spiritual life in the future are averse to this sole means of deliverance called nama-bhajana, which is the worship of the sound incarnation of God in the form of chanting 100,000 names of the the Holy Names daily. Coming under the sway of their averseness to chant laksha-nama daily, they duplicitously invent (chalana) other means of devotional service (bhajana) to justify their not chanting 100,000 names daily but it is to be clearly understood that by this action they will not achieve anything auspicious (mangala) in their spiritual life."

Being a diksa Guru and disciple  is not cheap though almost everyone take it very cheap

vaisnava das anu das

Paramananda das